Edited Title: verify that the Roman Catholic Church is the true church with its leadership acting under the authority of successorship from the original apostles?


#1

How could an outsider verify that the Roman Catholic Church is the true church with its leadership acting under the authority of successorship from the original apostles? I.E. What are the proof tests?


#2

It is my opinion based on the volumes of posts on these forums that there are no proofs. It all boils done to faith. Faith that what the Catholic (not Roman Catholic) Church teaches is the truth.


#3

What do you think such verification would look like? What is your standard of verification?

I’ll wait a while before I suggest that you verify the bible in the same way. :slight_smile:


#4

What kind of “proof” are you looking for anyway? What evidence would you accept?


#5

Whether you believe in the inspriation of the Scriptures or not, look at them as a historical document and how the Church was organized. If you do believe in the inspiration, also look at the OT prophecies concerning the People of God. Then look at the historical record of the early Church and then throughout the centuries. The unity of faith and ecclesiological organization can only point to one community of believers–the Catholic Church undr the primacy of the Bishop of Rome. It’s either that or nothing, and if it’s nothing, Jesus lied or the Bible was corrupted…and if that’s the case, might as well abandon Christianity as untenable…


#6

Any truly Apostolic Church has kept meticulous succession records of the “faithful men” to whom the teachings of the Apostles was “committed” (2Tim 2:2) When I was a Baptist being dragged kicking and screaming by the Holy Spirit into catholicism it was the fact that these records existed which made me stop and take a second look at what Catholicism was all about.

Peace,
+N


#7

If to think that it is not , than from Constantine conversion( 313 ) until Martin Luther’s arrival ( 1517 ), there was no Church.
Because , historically speaking neither Waldenses , nor Cathari,Albigensians , Montanists, Donatists , can not be called as the ancestors of the Protestants , just because they were the heretics in their teachings.

But its simply impossible and ridiculous to think like this.
Do You believe that the movements which were born 60, 150 years ago , have more right to call themselves the Church ?
These movements have absurdly late appearance.
The Church must have the historic continuity or it is not a Church .


#8

Anyone that says they can “prove” the RCC is true is a liar. It’s impossible, and can’t be done. There are holes on every side. James 1:5.

Moreover, I’ve always been curious that an Apostolic Church has no Apostles, even though Paul explicitly states that they’re still needed.

A Pac


#9

Hi, Is your LDS church the true church?
Thanks.


#10

Brother , but God’s Wisdom is not schismatic.
God’s wisdom is not individualistic.
Jesus prayed about the Christian unity.
In the Epistles to the Galatians it is written that
….disputes,dissensions,factions … are the the deeds of the flesh.

I remember when I was studying in the Bible courses , the Evangelical teachers were saying :

  • The Church was teaching….
    -The Church fathers were teaching….

But telling that they do not realize that the Church fathers were not Protestants.

The Scripture calls the Church not the Bible the pillar and the ground of the truth.
The idea of the Scriptures authority existing apart from the authority of the Church is utterly foreign
To the early Church.
Apostle Paul instructs us to obey the apostolic tradition. There is no instruction in the Scriptures about obeying the Bible.
The word Bible even not used in the Scriptures.
Why do You think that individual Churches were meant to be autonomous from one another, and to govern themselves on their own ?
How could Paul claim the Church to be ‘’the very foundation of truth’’ and yet have within it so many different interpretations of what is true ?


#11

The Apostles are still here. We call them Bishops. As has been pointed out already, the records show succession right from scriptural times to today.


#12

When You read the Old Testament,do You see the idea in there of starting the reformed Judaism ?
No.
God would never appreciate it , God would call it rebellion.
But in the Protestant world - its easy.
The very notion that one can start a new or the’’ true church’'
is Protestant to the core.
Any body can start a church.
He just need the wish.


#13

well, I think truth has to correspond to reality–spiritual and physical, it has to be internally consistent, and externally consistant.

a demonstration of these things would be as good as proof of the verosity of the visible catholic church if it is the best explanation of the evidence.

for example: jesus said, “my kingdom is not of this world, if it were of this world my servants would fight for me.” and yet in the crusades and in politics the roman church fights and pontificates on behalf of “God’s earthly kingdom”–I think? this does’nt seem internally consistant if Christ is the head of the catholic church.

I should make clear, I’m not standing on protestantism either. that would suppose it to be a consistant position. I don’t think that protestantism as popularly conceived is the alternative. I would tear such a position apart in a minute.


#14

if the apostles are the bishops of the church, what about the claims that their offices have been at times bought or taken by force? are they historically true? how can I check?


#15

Why do you think that it is not the act of love , if your Christian brothers in the plea for help , to liberate them , as it was in the case of Crusades ?


#16

You can call them Jedi Knights for all I care. They are NOT Apostles, nor do they claim it.


#17

actually they do claim it a-pack, not the orginal but their successors. “catechism of the cathelic church” paragraph 1576. I sugest you can one and start reading it as a start for know what the catholic church teaches. obiously it will take a lot more work to find the reason behind it–there may not be any.


#18

ok, there’s been mention of the bible as though it is the alternative to the catholic church. I’ve never insinuated such a thing. actually the bible comes through christian tradition from the 1st to 4th centuries. the reason for using the bible is that it is a time capsul of what the tradition taught in the 1st century–the tradition of the 1st generation of apostles. that’s why I compare the bible with modern church teaching–internal consistancy. its not that I believe sola scritura, its just that I do believe in at least the scriptures. so the rest must be in sinc. if I were more familier with the ante-niacene fathers and other ancient leader’s writings I would be checking them too. write now, I hav’nt got that far.


#19

They were also men. It would be impossoble to look at the thousands and thousands of Bishops over the last 2,000 years and determine if any ofthem were bought or taken by force. But would it matter if some of them were? No one has ever claimed the Bishops were without sin. IIRC some of the Aposltes sinned preety greviously-one even beetrayed the Lord


#20

[quote="[COLOR=“Blue”]dingyboatman, post:13, topic:77754"]

for example: jesus said, “my kingdom is not of this world, if it were of this world my servants would fight for me.” and yet in the crusades and in politics the roman church fights and pontificates on behalf of “God’s earthly kingdom”–I think? this does’nt seem internally consistant if Christ is the head of the catholic church.

[/quote]

You know from the Scriptures that Biblical Israelites who were led by the Holy Spirit could not just ignore the Amalekites , just because the Amalekites wouldn’t ignore the Israel , right ?

In the case with Crusades, it were the legitimate defense against a mortal threat.
The wars which were the response to aggressions were defensive.
The Christians were the victims at then , not the aggressors.


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