Either Catholics or Mormons have it right...


#1

I’m a strong Catholic who loves researching other religions to learn about them, and recently I’ve been researching Mormonism just for fun. I think it’s interesting once you get into all the different denominations and what not, but I digress.

I found this on YouTube and thought it was interesting

This is from an account of Orson F. Whitney, who was an Apostle for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints:
"Many years ago a learned man, a member of the Roman Catholic Church, came to Utah and spoke from the stand of the Salt Lake Tabernacle. I became well-acquanted with him, and we conversed freely and frankly. A great scholar, with perhaps a dozen languages at his tongue’s end, he seemed to know all about theology, law, literature, science and philosophy. One day he said to me: 'You Mormons are all ignoramuses. You don’t even know the strength of your own position. It is so strong that there is only one other tenable in the whole Christian world, and that is the position of the Catholic Church. The issue is between Catholicism and Mormonism. If we are right, your are wrong; if you are right, we are wrong; and that’s all there is to it. The Protestants haven’t a leg to stand on. For, if we are wrong, they are wrong with us, since they were a part of us and went out from us; while if we are right, they are apostates whom we cut off long ago. If we have apostolic succession from St. Peter, as we claim, there is no need of Joseph Smith and Mormonism; but if we have not that succession, then such a man as Joseph Smith was necessary, and Mormonism’s attitude is the only consistent one. It is either the perpetuation of the gospel from ancient times, or the restoration of the gospel in latter days."

Here’s the link to the video: youtube.com/watch?v=vktEaSevdfE
The video is the same as above, but with nice music in the background.

I thought it was an interesting point. I would like to know what you guys here thought.

Though if I were a betting man, I’d put my money on the Catholic Church.


#2

2,000 plus years of unbroken APOSTOLIC succession. ONE doctrine of faith over that 2,000 plus years. Established by "Jesus, and protected by the HOLY "Spirit and CATHOLIC throuhout the entire world.
So, are you a betting man?


#3

Well first of all, that is a Mormon legend, a faith promoting story, that has never been found to have a factual basis (who is this anonymous Catholic?).

Beyond that, there are100 reasons to not believe anything that comes from Mormonism, including their conspiracy theory known as “the great apostasy”. There are numerous threads that cover many of these reasons.


#4

Don't Protestants also believe in an apostasy of some sort? They left the Catholic Church because they say it no longer represents true Christianity, but there is no evidence to support this claim. The writings are there, and there is scriptural basis for the Church's teachings.


#5

[quote="SalesianSDB, post:1, topic:218823"]
I'm a strong Catholic who loves researching other religions to learn about them, and recently I've been researching Mormonism just for fun. I think it's interesting once you get into all the different denominations and what not, but I digress.

I found this on YouTube and thought it was interesting
...

I thought it was an interesting point. I would like to know what you guys here thought.

Though if I were a betting man, I'd put my money on the Catholic Church.

[/quote]

Mormonism claims to be a Restoration of the original true Church of Christ, with prophets, Apostles, and modern day revelation and scripture; whereas Protestantism claims to be a Reformation of the Catholic Church. Mormonism claims to be a Revelation from God, whereas Protestantism claims to be nothing more than a human endeavor at correcting errors in the Catholic Church. If both claims were true, Mormonism by definition would supersede Protestantism.

Both Mormonism and Protestantism in fact claim that an apostasy of the early Christian Church took place; but their solutions to it are different. I like the Mormon solution better—obviously! :)


#6

[quote="zerinus, post:5, topic:218823"]
Mormonism claims to be a Restoration of the original true Church of Christ, with prophets, Apostles, and modern day revelation and scripture; whereas Protestantism claims to be a Reformation of the Catholic Church. Mormonism claims to be a Revelation from God, whereas Protestantism claims to be nothing more than a human endeavor at correcting errors in the Catholic Church. If both claims were true, Mormonism by definition would supersede Protestantism.

Both Mormonism and Protestantism in fact claim that an apostasy of the early Christian Church took place; but their solutions to it are different. I like the Mormon solution better—obviously! :)

[/quote]

Hi,

actually it depends of WHICH Protestant denomination we are talking about:

I agree: Lutherans (and maybe also the Reformed Churches) are talking about restoring the Catholic Church.

BUT: Just recently our Baptist Pastor said (on 31th Octobre which is the Reformation Day) that Luther restored Early Christianity /by reading the Holy Bible/ and that the Catholic Church has gone wrong some time ago.
So also Baptists (and maybe also other Churches with Credo-Baptism) believe just as the Mormons do that the Reformation (not only Luther!) has restored Early Christianity.
After starting to read the Holy Bible btw., I also found that out for myself that Protestantism is quite right in quite a lot of points concerning theology.

Esdra


#7

[quote="Esdra, post:6, topic:218823"]
Hi,

actually it depends of WHICH Protestant denomination we are talking about:

I agree: Lutherans (and maybe also the Reformed Churches) are talking about restoring the Catholic Church.

BUT: Just recently our Baptist Pastor said (on 31th Octobre which is the Reformation Day) that Luther restored Early Christianity /by reading the Holy Bible/ and that the Catholic Church has gone wrong some time ago.
So also Baptists (and maybe also other Churches with Credo-Baptism) believe just as the Mormons do that the Reformation (not only Luther!) has restored Early Christianity.
After starting to read the Holy Bible btw., I also found that out for myself that Protestantism is quite right in quite a lot of points concerning theology.

Esdra

[/quote]

That is still Reformation with a different name. I think that your Baptist pastor is trying to steal our clothes! :) But he is out of luck I am afraid. Genuine Restoration can only come by Revelation, which Luther never claimed. How are you going to restore the authority of the priesthood without revelation? It can't be done. Protestantism doesn't even believe in priesthood authority or in the sacramental nature of the gospel. They believe in the "priesthood of all believers" or "priesthood of all the baptized," and they reject the necessity of the sacraments for salvation because they think they are "works"! Mormonism is almost more sacramental than Catholicism is.


#8

When there are two or more positions on a topic.

One could be right and all others wrong.

Each may be partly right.

No one is right.

Either Or is a simple well known logic error.


#9

The main problem with Mormonism for me isn't their story; it is that Joseph Smith is not a trustworthy man. You couldn't trust him alone with your wife for more than five minutes so how are you going to trust him to deliver a divine revelation? :p


#10

[quote="SalesianSDB, post:1, topic:218823"]
I'm a strong Catholic who loves researching other religions to learn about them, and recently I've been researching Mormonism just for fun. I think it's interesting once you get into all the different denominations and what not, but I digress.

I found this on YouTube and thought it was interesting

This is from an account of Orson F. Whitney, who was an Apostle for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints:
"Many years ago a learned man, a member of the Roman Catholic Church, came to Utah and spoke from the stand of the Salt Lake Tabernacle. I became well-acquanted with him, and we conversed freely and frankly. A great scholar, with perhaps a dozen languages at his tongue's end, he seemed to know all about theology, law, literature, science and philosophy. One day he said to me: 'You Mormons are all ignoramuses. You don't even know the strength of your own position. It is so strong that there is only one other tenable in the whole Christian world, and that is the position of the Catholic Church. The issue is between Catholicism and Mormonism. If we are right, your are wrong; if you are right, we are wrong; and that's all there is to it. The Protestants haven't a leg to stand on. For, if we are wrong, they are wrong with us, since they were a part of us and went out from us; while if we are right, they are apostates whom we cut off long ago. If we have apostolic succession from St. Peter, as we claim, there is no need of Joseph Smith and Mormonism; but if we have not that succession, then such a man as Joseph Smith was necessary, and Mormonism's attitude is the only consistent one. It is either the perpetuation of the gospel from ancient times, or the restoration of the gospel in latter days."

Here's the link to the video: youtube.com/watch?v=vktEaSevdfE
The video is the same as above, but with nice music in the background.

I thought it was an interesting point. I would like to know what you guys here thought.

Though if I were a betting man, I'd put my money on the Catholic Church.

[/quote]

The missionaries that came to our house told us this as well.
The problem is the Mormons claim there was a great apostasy and early Church history clearly debunks that AND Jesus promised us that His Church would never fail and that the Holy Spirit would always guide His Church so.....that means either Jesus was wrong or the Mormons are wrong.

There is NO WAY Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, the Savior of all could be wrong and there is NO WAY that anyone should follow a church whose founding prophet stated that Jesus could not keep His church together.

That leaves the Catholic Church as the One True Church as per Jesus Christ Himself.


#11

[quote="SalesianSDB, post:1, topic:218823"]
I'm a strong Catholic who loves researching other religions to learn about them, and recently I've been researching Mormonism just for fun. I think it's interesting once you get into all the different denominations and what not, but I digress.

I found this on YouTube and thought it was interesting

This is from an account of Orson F. Whitney, who was an Apostle for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints:
"Many years ago a learned man, a member of the Roman Catholic Church, came to Utah and spoke from the stand of the Salt Lake Tabernacle. I became well-acquanted with him, and we conversed freely and frankly. A great scholar, with perhaps a dozen languages at his tongue's end, he seemed to know all about theology, law, literature, science and philosophy. One day he said to me: 'You Mormons are all ignoramuses. You don't even know the strength of your own position. It is so strong that there is only one other tenable in the whole Christian world, and that is the position of the Catholic Church. The issue is between Catholicism and Mormonism. If we are right, your are wrong; if you are right, we are wrong; and that's all there is to it. The Protestants haven't a leg to stand on. For, if we are wrong, they are wrong with us, since they were a part of us and went out from us; while if we are right, they are apostates whom we cut off long ago. If we have apostolic succession from St. Peter, as we claim, there is no need of Joseph Smith and Mormonism; but if we have not that succession, then such a man as Joseph Smith was necessary, and Mormonism's attitude is the only consistent one. It is either the perpetuation of the gospel from ancient times, or the restoration of the gospel in latter days."

Here's the link to the video: youtube.com/watch?v=vktEaSevdfE
The video is the same as above, but with nice music in the background.

I thought it was an interesting point. I would like to know what you guys here thought.

Though if I were a betting man, I'd put my money on the Catholic Church.

[/quote]

To me this is good logic. Not a single Protestant Church had the authority of God to create a new church. They all broke from Rome and in doing so cut themselves off from all divine authority. On the other hand, if there was an apostasy as the Protestants and Mormons claim, there is only a single church that I have heard of that teaches any form of full restorationism and that is the Mormons.

That this comes from the Mormon church makes me giggle in that they themselves understand the strength of the Catholic message...one solid line of authority from Christ to Benedict XVI and will continue until the return of Christ. In my entire life I have always felt that all Protestants had built their house on sand; their churches were the direct work of man. Case closed. Please, don't get me started on the Anglican Church; there was never a case so flimsy as that one for starting their own church.

I remain an advocate that we should never point a finger at another and accuse them of sin. Old Joe the adulterer, philanderer, etc. so as to dismiss the message. When we accuse others of being sinners "there is only that single finger pointed in pride....while there is another three pointed back at me." Shall we discuss the multitude of sexual sins within other churches? How about the sins of St. Augustine that he so fully acknowledges; should we discuss his message, wisdom, and truth. Holy Mother, when will we learn? May we put down our pride and take up the truth faith that Jesus is our Master and we need not fear the works of other churches. In our faith we will be gentle, in our faith we are clothed in thy strength, in our humility we bow before the heavens and pray for out brothers and sisters.


#12

[quote="JeanMichel, post:11, topic:218823"]
To me this is good logic. Not a single Protestant Church had the authority of God to create a new church. They all broke from Rome and in doing so cut themselves off from all divine authority. On the other hand, if there was an apostasy as the Protestants and Mormons claim, there is only a single church that I have heard of that teaches any form of full restorationism and that is the Mormons.

That this comes from the Mormon church makes me giggle in that they themselves understand the strength of the Catholic message...one solid line of authority from Christ to Benedict XVI and will continue until the return of Christ. In my entire life I have always felt that all Protestants had built their house on sand; their churches were the direct work of man. Case closed. Please, don't get me started on the Anglican Church; there was never a case so flimsy as that one for starting their own church.

I remain an advocate that we should never point a finger at another and accuse them of sin. Old Joe the adulterer, philanderer, etc. so as to dismiss the message. When we accuse others of being sinners "there is only that single finger pointed in pride....while there is another three pointed back at me." Shall we discuss the multitude of sexual sins within other churches? How about the sins of St. Augustine that he so fully acknowledges; should we discuss his message, wisdom, and truth. Holy Mother, when will we learn? May we put down our pride and take up the truth faith that Jesus is our Master and we need not fear the works of other churches. In our faith we will be gentle, in our faith we are clothed in thy strength, in our humility we bow before the heavens and pray for out brothers and sisters.

[/quote]

JeanMichel - I agree that pointing fingers and accusing others of sin is not right. However, that is exactly what the Mormons do when they claim the first Christians were apostates. It is not right all the way around.

And let's face it, we don't even have to focus on the "lifestyle" of Joseph Smith - just his words - to show that he taught that all other churches were wrong and that not even Jesus could keep a church together. Really, what he did in private pales in comparison to those words.

Remember, even Jesus spoke up for the Truth. He was humble but he did not allow for a false teaching to go unchallenged. He calls us to do the same.

btw - St. Augustine confessed his sinful ways and converted to the life that Jesus had set up before him. He did not seek to change the Church or demand that it relax its standards for him. That is the beauty of the Catholic Church - it is, and always has been - for sinners.:)


#13

Christianity is for sinners. It's all about forgiveness. But Mormons seem to believe they are saints - not sinners! At least that's the way I see it. Catholics know they are sinners, and that is why Christ's message is so powerful. Joseph Smith was quite a sinner, but he didn't seem to feel bad about it, or go to the Lord for forgiveness.


#14

[quote="Julian0404, post:2, topic:218823"]
2,000 plus years of unbroken APOSTOLIC succession. ONE doctrine of faith over that 2,000 plus years. Established by "Jesus, and protected by the HOLY "Spirit and CATHOLIC throughout the entire world.
So, are you a betting man?

[/quote]

.....:thumbsup:.....


#15

[quote="campeador, post:14, topic:218823"]
.....:thumbsup:.....

[/quote]

Hi Cam
And Rome was full of sinners, and thats exactly were Jesus sent St.Paul to preach.

For what better reason could the Church, convert a large Roman Pagan society than to place itself within their midst?

Then Jesus further told St. Paul, in Acts 22:21, "Go, for to the Gentiles far away I will send you"..

quote=onenow1 Rome was Gentile and far away.

God Bless


#16

The question should be:

Re: Either Jesus Christ or Joseph Smith have it right...


#17

[quote="CHRISTINE77, post:13, topic:218823"]
Christianity is for sinners. It's all about forgiveness. But Mormons seem to believe they are saints - not sinners! At least that's the way I see it. Catholics know they are sinners, and that is why Christ's message is so powerful. Joseph Smith was quite a sinner, but he didn't seem to feel bad about it, or go to the Lord for forgiveness.

[/quote]

And he taught others to follow him in his sinful behavior.


#18

[quote="JeanMichel, post:11, topic:218823"]
To me this is good logic. Not a single Protestant Church had the authority of God to create a new church. They all broke from Rome and in doing so cut themselves off from all divine authority. On the other hand, if there was an apostasy as the Protestants and Mormons claim, there is only a single church that I have heard of that teaches any form of full restorationism and that is the Mormons.

That this comes from the Mormon church makes me giggle in that they themselves understand the strength of the Catholic message...one solid line of authority from Christ to Benedict XVI and will continue until the return of Christ. In my entire life I have always felt that all Protestants had built their house on sand; their churches were the direct work of man. Case closed. Please, don't get me started on the Anglican Church; there was never a case so flimsy as that one for starting their own church.

I remain an advocate that we should never point a finger at another and accuse them of sin. Old Joe the adulterer, philanderer, etc. so as to dismiss the message. When we accuse others of being sinners "there is only that single finger pointed in pride....while there is another three pointed back at me." Shall we discuss the multitude of sexual sins within other churches? How about the sins of St. Augustine that he so fully acknowledges; should we discuss his message, wisdom, and truth. Holy Mother, when will we learn? May we put down our pride and take up the truth faith that Jesus is our Master and we need not fear the works of other churches. In our faith we will be gentle, in our faith we are clothed in thy strength, in our humility we bow before the heavens and pray for out brothers and sisters.

[/quote]

Maybe you should take note of your own words when speaking about the Anglicans.


#19

"Either Catholics or Mormons have it right . . ." is a false statement. It implies that either Catholicism or Mormonism is the true religion. If you believe a guy named Joseph Smith -- who claimed he could find buried treasure by looking through magic peep stones in his hat, resulting in his conviction for fraud in a New York court in 1826 -- you have my deepest sympathy. Comparing Mormonism, born in New York in the U.S.A., to the True Church founded by Jesus Christ in A.D. 33 in Jerusalem is an insult.

In 1830, this same con man founded the Latter Day Saints church, and claimed to have found "golden plates" written in "Reformed Egyptian" -- a language unknown to science to this day -- that told the story of inhabitants of the United States beginning in 600 B.C. Only Joseph Smith could read these golden plates -- with the aid of magic peep stones called Urim and Thummim -- and if anyone else dared to look at the plates, God would strike them dead. The story continues . . . it's an interesting story, if you like fiction. Neither archaeology, nor genetics, nor linguistics, nor prehistory, nor history, nor logic, nor any other evidence supports it.

Jim Dandy


#20

Any Person that actually eats the literal flesh of Christ and drinks the literal blood of Christ and recognizes it as such is part of Gods Church whether they like it or not. The rest are his Enemies.... and they starve!


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