Elder Scrolls 4 and Fallout 3

When you play either of these Bethesda role playing games, choices you make in the game reflect morality.

You can either kill, steal and make enemies, gain wealth but do evil things and finish the game quickly. Alternatively, you can be lawful and good by always doing the right and selfless things, though it makes the game harder, at least your honest and a sword of justice.

How do you play games like that?
I always go lawful good and become a hero.

I love games where you can make moral choices (The original Fable, KOTR). I tried, and tried, and tried to get into Fallout 3, but I just couldn't. Hear me well-I think it's a great game that someone could easily get into, it's just not for me. Goodness knows I tried.

I actually differ from many people whom I would probably agree with on alot when it comes to ot violent video games. I DO think that some people who play them can get corrupted. Others can't. If you spend 24 hours a way playing trash like Grand Theft Auto 7 (whatever that vile series is at, I don't care), you will get desensitized to violence.

Having said that, there is nothing morally wrong with playing those kind of games and making choices that in the real world would be heinous. Don't take it to the extreme-that's the key.

Those games are cool!

I don't always choose good though. I wonder about that sometimes...

Is it a bad influence because I choose morally wrong decisions in a make-believe world?

Or is it a good thing because I can get those actions "out of my system" without any consequences, because I know its not real?

For me, its just fun. I always play a good character, but not always "Lawful Good" good. Do you know what I mean?

[quote="Garyjohn2, post:3, topic:234124"]
Those games are cool!

I don't always choose good though. I wonder about that sometimes...

Is it a bad influence because I choose morally wrong decisions in a make-believe world?

Or is it a good thing because I can get those actions "out of my system" without any consequences, because I know its not real?

For me, its just fun. I always play a good character, but not always "Lawful Good" good. Do you know what I mean?

[/quote]

I play Chaotic Good charecters usually.

I play Morrowind since I can't run Oblivion and every chance I get I steal whatever I can get my hands on. Everywhere else I try to play good, but I can't cure my kleptomania.

By elder scrolls, do you mean Oblivion? If so, I loooooove that game. I was playing it on my brother PS3 last november. I wasn't very far in the game when his PS3 over heated (aka, the orange light of death:eek:). His PS3 no longer works, so I can no longer play the game.

I'll confess, I stole a few items in the game, but I learned my lesson. I stole something from the mages guilde and got kicked out, lol. I had to prove myself to the head of the mages guilde to get back in. I had to gather 20 super hard to find flowers. That was a major pain in the booty.

moral choices in games is great for story telling, but most games like these are completely black and white. i played through fallout 3 three times, once as my default good, then bad and finally neutral. when your "good" your basically the embodiment of all thats good (even though i stole a lot from people, because if the good outweighs the bad then your set), when your bad your pure evil kill everyone and sell others into slavery all for money, but when you try to be neutral you have to manage a tricky balancing act like up megaton then going out and giving water to the poor old man outside tenpenny tower.

i hope deus ex:human revolution can have a "real" morality present in the game.

I find the follow up to Fallout 3 (Fallout:New Vegas) is more nuanced in regards to moral choices although unfortunately it's also got a fair ammount of glitches that can make the gameplay irritating at points such as when the game freezes and you have to reload or NPCs spawn at odd points. I'm not surprised by that as it's party developed by Obsidian who are good at giving you more morally involving choices. They did a good job of that in the the Knights of the Old Republic:The Sith Lords which they developed some years back as well. Although that also had quite a few glitches at points.

But I find New Vegas to be actually more in keeping in many ways with the tone of the Fallout Universe as it brings back the idea of factions and how pleasing one group will upset others. Also some of the quests do present major moral issues. One I played through last night involves finding out what has happened to the wife of one character who has dissappeared. You find out investigating she wasn't popular in town as she was seen as a snob and that one character has sold her and her unborn child into slavery. You have the option then of letting the character who did this live or making her follow you to a pre-arranged point so the husband of the missing wife can shoot her with a sniper rifle. It's your choice as to what you do. I found that a patch above the general fetch quests many RPGs go in for. The strongest bit of Fallout 3 is the Tranquility Lane episode which takes place within a virtual world within the game where individuals in cyrogenic suspension are been put through endless tortures in virtual worlds but are not aware they are in simulations and not really awake.

[quote="Garyjohn2, post:3, topic:234124"]

Is it a bad influence because I choose morally wrong decisions in a make-believe world?

Or is it a good thing because I can get those actions "out of my system" without any consequences, because I know its not real?

[/quote]

Definately a good thing, it is after all, only a game an form of entertainment. Some more hardcore, would argue against that.

[quote="child_of_God85, post:6, topic:234124"]
By elder scrolls, do you mean Oblivion? If so, I loooooove that game.

[/quote]

That's the one! The next game is out in November as well!!
Ha, you pick up somebodys fork in another persons house and the guards always from nowhere saying that you have violated the law.

The 'black and white' issue of morality in games come up a lot. A lot of reviewers complain about it as it basically "are you a saint or a baby eater?" kind of deal. Games like Dragon Age Origins are good as there is no 'moral bar' there is nothing saying you are good or evil, its up to you to measure your own actions. Thats one thing i disliked about Fallout 3, I had used up all my money helping people. I stole one bottle of water, which I really needed to heal, and got negative karma for it.

In games I usually play it three times throgh, one being good, one being bad and one being me, sometimes its more fun being evil (anyone who played KOTOR knew how funny it was to be evil with HK-47 in toe). I play 'chaotic good' for my 'me' play through, you dont make compromises and follow your code to the letter, kinda like Rorshach from Watchmen.

I like games that have moral choises in them though I wish they werent so extreme (ie Dragon age 2, side with fanatic A or fanatic B). I feel that being evil in games doesnt translate into being evil in real life though.

In games like Grand Theft Auto, you can go on a shoting spree, killing hundreds of innocents and police men and suffer no negative reprocussions. In games like Dragon Age, Oblivion, Fallout etc, when you do something evil it has reprocussions, certain factions will become hostile, certain people will charge more in stores and your can bet that theres gonna be a group out for your hide for revenge etc. Just like real life being bad has reprocussions just as sometimes being good has its negative sides.

HK-47 from the KOTOR series is highly amusing. His disdain for the 'meatbags' is quite droll at points. I don't particularly love the whole alignment thing from Dungeons and Dragons for morality. I think however if I was forced to do I'd slot Rorschach into that as Lawful Good but with a particularly draconian and twisted view of what the law is to reflect his mental illness as from his point of view he is acting lawfully by never compromising. Although of course from our point of view his actions are often characteristic of severe mental illness, although of course at points Rorschach''s actions point out how our society may well be viewed as mentally itself as a whole at times. I think characters like Rorschach, or indeed most well defined characters, simply won't fit in such boxs as the moral alignment system of Chaotic Neutral, Lawful Good. etc. represent.

Rorschach is definately Chaotic good. He makes that clear, when he kills people for his justice. A lawful good character, would have mercy.

[quote="Blood_Angel, post:12, topic:234124"]
Rorschach is definately Chaotic good. He makes that clear, when he kills people for his justice. A lawful good character, would have mercy.

[/quote]

A mentally well one might. Rorschach is an objectivist, he is largely inspired by an older Charlton character The Question (in fact Watchmen was originally meant to use characters from this company) who was created by Spider-mans co-creator Steve Ditko. Ditko also created a character called Mr. A who is similar in his black and white approach to morality as Rorschach. See below:-

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._A

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Question_%28comics%29

Rorschach represent how useless really the D and D moral aligment system is in portraying the complexity of human morality. It's essentially a game mechanism that only makes sense within it's own reference terms ultimately. Rorschach could be viewed as Chaotic good by your viewpoint or Lawful good by mine. He doesn't really fit either and it's ultimately awkward to try and make him fit into that and redundant.

I'd argue Rorschach is Neutral Good. He has his own sense of "justice" and seeks to to good..but whether his actions fall on the right or wrong side of the law is irrelevant to him.

A lawful character chooses to uphold law and order. A chaotic character actively seeks to go against them.

I can definately see how mental illness could factor in and complicate things. A character may be acting a certain way due to a moral code or perceived set of laws in his own mind that goes against the norm. The real quesiton is: What determines alignment...actual actions or internal motivations/intentions? :)

Watchmen is the best BTW!

The Comic certainly, the movie. Well I'd rather not get banned for using four letter words..:)

[quote="JharekCarnelian, post:15, topic:234124"]
The Comic certainly, the movie. Well I'd rather not get banned for using four letter words..:)

[/quote]

LOL.
The comic probably one of the best pieces of literature I've read, and I have a major in English. It's amazing.

I think the movie did a good job a bringing the characters to life...but it mutilated the story.

[quote="Garyjohn2, post:16, topic:234124"]
LOL.
The comic probably one of the best pieces of literature I've read, and I have a major in English. It's amazing.

I think the movie did a good job a bringing the characters to life...but it mutilated the story.

[/quote]

That's one of my problems with it. I read the comic when it was originally published, I was about 13 or so and remember reading it month by month. I'd put Moore on a short list of comic creators I consider genuinely to be hugely talented, Morrison, Eisner, Kirby, Spiegleman, Crumb and some others would be on there also. However Moore has a special place on it for me as I remember reading his work in the UK and Ireland before he was known in the US and then seeing his work in DC's Swamp Thing series which is what really made his name in the USA. He is someone I grew with up and I found the movie (like adaptions of all his work) made a hash of the original ideas.

Whoops looks like my post kinda derailed this thread from its original point :p

I do agree, the D and D 'moral system' is to cookie cutter. Plus i've read some good arguements saying all the Chaotic groups could be a single group, not three.

Absolutely, I do recognise thought that if you must use a morality or alignment system in games any of them will fall short. Fallout 3 and Oblivion show this as they try their best but even they can't come anywhere near simulating the complexity of reality.

I still think the follow up to Fallout 3, New Vegas which I'm still playing as I was at the beginning of this thread comes closer to doing so and also makes you wonder is your choice really the most moral at times as you aren't always privy to all the information that you would need for a truly informed choice. Although anyone else who is playing it will probably like me also be contributing to the ongoing ginormous glitches list mentally. If I see any more I'll be adding them into fallout wiki just to warn fellow players about one or two of them.

[quote="JharekCarnelian, post:19, topic:234124"]
Absolutely, I do recognise thought that if you must use a morality or alignment system in games any of them will fall short. Fallout 3 and Oblivion show this as they try their best but even they can't come anywhere near simulating the complexity of reality.

I still think the follow up to Fallout 3, New Vegas which I'm still playing as I was at the beginning of this thread comes closer to doing so and also makes you wonder is your choice really the most moral at times as you aren't always privy to all the information that you would need for a truly informed choice. Although anyone else who is playing it will probably like me also be contributing to the ongoing ginormous glitches list mentally. If I see any more I'll be adding them into fallout wiki just to warn fellow players about one or two of them.

[/quote]

True but I think that morality systems in games should be dropped and it is left up to the player to decide if their actions were just or not. Perhaps instead have a 'reputation' system that basically lists how you are seen amoungst certain factions, races and cities.

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