Emperor Constantine Created/changed Catholicism? (Merged Threads)

According to Karl Keating’s book Catholicism and Fundamentalism (Ignatius Press, 1988), most anti-Catholic “truths” can be traced back to one source, Loraine Boettner’s book Roman Catholicism (1962), which can therefore be called the “BIble” of the anti-Catholic movement. Over 100,000 copies were sold between 1962 and 1988, and many anti-Catholics use his ideas, often his very phrases and sentences, for their own attacks.

But Boettner did little or no research, no checking on the truth of what he wrote–he often simply accepts the wildest accusations of opponents of the Catholic position. He does not even give references, apart from the Bible citations, as to what Catholics are said to have claimed. (from Keating, pp. 28-31) And, again and again, he gives as history “facts” that are easily shown to be untrue, such as, to speak ex cathedra, the Pope must be seated in the actual chair Peter used–and that no such chair exists! (p. 36) However, we can similarly say that a judge speaks “from the bench”–but that does not require the judge go into the assigned courtroom and be seated at his desk to make such a ruling. Rather, it refers to the official nature of such a decision. And so on.

Thanks!

Because this one about Constantine starting the Catholic Church seems to come out into the open, held by alot of Evangelicals as well, the past 15 years or so. Hadn’t heard it before.

I talked to my anti-Catholic in law…of whom we love each other very much, if she had ever studied anything about church history. She said it was just too much to read and understand…so I just keep quiet now. Just pray and love. My son in law believes that about Constantine. My daughter told me they were both very upset when this young person church minister got up before his congregation and told them he did not believe in the Rapture like alot of American Evangelicals do.

All these shows about Christians evading the Cross in the rapture while everybody else really gets it bad.

How I pray for Christian unity and solid teachings…

Thanks to you, Church Militant and for all your work on CAF. I will check out your reference!

Constantine couldn’t change The Church, in the first place because he wasn’t Catholic.
He had a death bed conversion.

Hi there,

In the recent past, I have had two different people tell me that The Catholic Church didn’t begin until 325 A.D. or the Council of Nicaea and I’m trying to understand their logic as well as have a rebuttal. I truly believe The Catholic Church began with Jesus gave Peter the keys to the kingdom. How do I go about answering them?

Thanks!

Daniel

Simple…ask them for proof to support their claim.

Hand them a $7 copy of “Early Christian Writings: The Apostolic Fathers” published by Penguin Classics. In it they will read how the early Church (before Nicea/Constantine/325AD) believed in the Eucharist, baptism actually washing away sin, the Mass, etc.

bks4.books.google.com/books?id=hh5U4Bfl3owC&printsec=frontcover&img=1&zoom=1&edge=curl&imgtk=AFLRE73AkUGZLzAvIAKHOch-RETF3v8N2z2tMrOmjfuOwbf-I3y3b50swJ46PceaaMXkvewb7ran6LTZ5gU2JswoVAx56l7-tdCzlJXXEDgIZUA4UyaQ6mAmGO_60dzbxueuTZSzRyXP

An Evangelical friend of mine kept bringing up the nonsense that the Catholic Church was invented by Constantine in 325AD. I eventually gave him a copy of this book - not sure if he read any of it but he never brought up the topic again.

-Tim-

That would still be 1,200 years earlier than their denomination.

Hit them with this quote from St. Ignatius of Antioch, who was writing in 107 AD:

“Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”

And then hit them with the fact that St. Ignatius was a disciple of St. John the Apostle and was personally ordained a priest by either St. Peter, St. Paul or both.

Would need to hear the logic first before replying. I would ask them for their source material for the claim.

The Catholic Church began on the day of Pentecost. (Yes, Jesus gave Peter the keys earlier, but he began his exercise of the Petrine ministry after Jesus ascended into Heaven and the Holy Spirit descended upon the Apostles.)

Thanks for that, Tim! My parents have a series called Faith of the Early Fathers, which I’m going to start reading, but I also picked up the one you recommended.

Also, thanks to all of the other comments, as well. One of the people that stated this is actually also in disagreement with all forms of Protestantism. What he stated is that he wants to do exactly what the Apostles did in serving Jesus and he made it sound as though the Catholic Church is as close as it gets but then laid the ‘325’ bombshell so hopefully I can clarify, God-willing.

:thumbsup:

I thought Pentacost was a continuation of a Jewish festival. The book to Tolbit mentions the Pentacost feast.

This is a very common misperception of “bible Christians” that are ignorant of the history of their faith. They are often also misled to believe that Constantine started the CC because he was the one who ordered and facilitiated the Council of Nicea in 325.

Simply ask them “what church existed before that ?”

Then,

“What church did the bishops for the council come from?”

“What happened to the church that existed before 325AD?”

In other words, they need to prove their ridiculous anti historical statement. They are trying to refute even the Encyclopedia with that statement.

Pentecost was a Jewish festival, the apostles were gathered for the feast along with thousands of others. The Holy Spirit descended on them this day and it is the day they really started their missions.

Ancient Church Fathers: What the Disciples of the Apostles Taught (Paperback)

hello-- if you are looking 4 the silver bullet – or just trying to get the “upper hand” it wont work-- unless you can “raise some one from the dead” why should they believe you are any one??

but if you direct them to something written that "might identify to their understanding – well then they will read it – to see the full content !

If you are interested in the historical development of theology, this is an excellent book.

I would highly recommend going back to the original context of the quotes to make sure the quotes are not being taken out of context

. However, I really enjoyed the amount of doctrines this book touches on.

I will be referring to this book often. It touches on many of the doctrinal controversy’s today such as Calvinism, dispensationalism, Catholicism, Cessation, Baptism, and many, many others.

I find myself generally agreeing with the author’s views on most of the controversies/ doctrines that he touches on.

It is very important to understand the origins of the Calvinistic/ Reformed interpretation of scripture.
These ideas started with Gnostic cults who mixed philosophy with the Bible, were picked up by Augustine later in life and were later developed by Calvin and his followers.

This book demonstrates that these doctrines were not emphasized by the disciples of the apostles as being essential to the true gospel.

The way the modern Calvinists teach on election, forknowledge, free will, and other doctrines finds its roots in the gnostic cults who thought they were elite groups with special knowledge.

My favorite quote in the book was this:

Papias AD 70-155

Fragment 6 – After the resurrection of the dead, Jesus will personally reign for one thousand years. I was taught this by the apostle John, himself.

When I went to search for this quote in the church Fathers I noticed that the phrase “I was taught this by the apostle John, himself.” seems to be the interpretation of this author and not the actual quote. The orginal context seemed to be saying that Papias learned this from those who learned from the apostle John.

You must be careful with this work. Check out the quotes in the original sources if you are going to use them. However, this is a useful and valuable work

Ancient Church Fathers: What the Disciples of the Apostles Taught (Paperback)

I was always told to read the church fathers to see what the early Christians believed

. After reading this book,

I came to the same conclusion the early fathers of the Catholic faith did of the Bible.

It looks like the Roman Catholic Church was the one Catholic organization who split away from the early Christians to go their own way by giving all power to the Roman Pope based on false documents such as the “Donation of Constantine”

This book will open the eyes of most Roman Catholics as to what they have been taught compared to what the first Christians believed and were taught by the Bible and later the early Christian Leaders.

Check out the quotes in the original sources if you are going to use them. However, this is a useful and valuable work

You need nothing more than this. :slight_smile: Great answers, Roll and Jim.

Ancient Church Fathers: What the Disciples of the Apostles Taught (Paperback)

hello-- if you are looking 4 the silver bullet – or just trying to get the “upper hand” it wont work-- unless you can “raise some one from the dead” why should they believe you are any one??

but if you direct them to something written that "might identify to their understanding – well then they will read it – to see the full content !

If you are interested in the historical development of theology, this is an excellent book.

I would highly recommend going back to the original context of the quotes to make sure the quotes are not being taken out of context

. However, I really enjoyed the amount of doctrines this book touches on.

I will be referring to this book often. It touches on many of the doctrinal controversy’s today such as Calvinism, dispensationalism, Catholicism, Cessation, Baptism, and many, many others.

I find myself generally agreeing with the author’s views on most of the controversies/ doctrines that he touches on.

It is very important to understand the origins of the Calvinistic/ Reformed interpretation of scripture.
These ideas started with Gnostic cults who mixed philosophy with the Bible, were picked up by Augustine later in life and were later developed by Calvin and his followers.

This book demonstrates that these doctrines were not emphasized by the disciples of the apostles as being essential to the true gospel.

The way the modern Calvinists teach on election, forknowledge, free will, and other doctrines finds its roots in the gnostic cults who thought they were elite groups with special knowledge.

My favorite quote in the book was this:

Papias AD 70-155

Fragment 6 – After the resurrection of the dead, Jesus will personally reign for one thousand years. I was taught this by the apostle John, himself.

When I went to search for this quote in the church Fathers I noticed that the phrase “I was taught this by the apostle John, himself.” seems to be the interpretation of this author and not the actual quote. The orginal context seemed to be saying that Papias learned this from those who learned from the apostle John.

You must be careful with this work. Check out the quotes in the original sources if you are going to use them. However, this is a useful and valuable work

Ancient Church Fathers: What the Disciples of the Apostles Taught (Paperback)

I was always told to read the church fathers to see what the early Christians believed

. After reading this book,

I came to the same conclusion the early fathers of the Catholic faith did of the Bible.

It looks like the Roman Catholic Church was the one Catholic organization who split away from the early Christians to go their own way by giving all power to the Roman Pope based on false documents such as the “Donation of Constantine”

This book will open the eyes of most Roman Catholics as to what they have been taught compared to what the first Christians believed and were taught by the Bible and later the early Christian Leaders.

Check out the quotes in the original sources if you are going to use them. However, this is a useful and valuable work

Nonsense. A false, extremely erroneous book by a non scholar Calvary Chapel attending Anti catholic.

Like so many others he tries to find error in the Catholic Church because he is not a seeker of truth, but instead a charlatan who defends his erroneous doctrine at all costs.

I’m sorry you fell for it, but perhaps you’d like a scholarly book like “the Fathers know best” by James Akin.
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