End times


#1

Hello! I know that this is not the right forum, but I have no clue where to post this. Admins, please move this to the right section!

My question is on the Church’s views on the end times. I am sort of a revert to Catolicism. Had confirmation and all as a teen, but then was agnostic for years, and now I am back :slight_smile:

I have studied much of the Bible, read it more then once, but still do not know what the Church teaches on end times!

So i was wondering what the Church thought on end times, the antichrist, etc. Any info would be appreciated, as I can’t find too much info from using google!

Thanks, and God Bless :slight_smile:


#2

I am a convert to Catholicism and I had the same questions. The way I found the answer is to buy a Catholic Study Bible. I found it at Borders and the commentaries give a good interpretation of things in Revelation. Hope this may help you find some answers.

:thumbsup:


#3

This might help:
catholic.com/library/last_things.asp

or this
ewtn.com/faith/Teachings/lastmenu.htm


#4

Also this might help:
newadvent.org/cathen/05528b.htm

Finially Fr. Corapi does a talk on this issue
You can buy the talk via Fr. Corapi’s web-site.

fathercorapi.com
In the product search field type in the words “last things” or the word “Eschatology”.


#5

I am also a convert to Catholicism, and had to figure out it is not all about “end times”. The emphasis on end times is more a protestant emphasis due to their interpretaions of the Apocalypse. What the Church has taught about the Apocalypse is that much what protestants see as end times is actually happenning right now, and has been happening throughout the Church age. This is the amillenial view of Apocalypse as first developed by St. Augustine (some protestants do hold this view, also). I recommend The Aocalypse of St. John, The Catholic Apologetics Study Bible, Volume II, Robert A. Sungenis, Ph.D. I just read it, and it really helped understand the traditional Catholic view on the Apocalypse. Once you read this book, you will understand the Church view, and you will find the Apocalypse makes a lot of sense, and explains a lot about the way things are today. You will understand how distorted some of the protestant views are, also. Of course, there is a lot about end times in the Apocalypse, and the book I recommend goes into the end times.

Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com


#6

Distorted huh?

You mention Robert Sungenis for a source to learn about how the Jewish Messiah, Jesus, will come back to Jerusalem to save spiritually all of Israel. Not to mention Jesus will also save them from all nations(Zech14:2) and antichrist, who will be looking to give Israel and the Jews the final solution for the last time.

Looking at Mr.Sungenis website, he seems to be anti-Israel in every way. He uses the tired news of how the Jews are “media, bank, and political moguls”. He even likes to magnify the fact that there are Jewish Holocaust deniers and Jews using the Holocaust for their own initiatives when he is making his point how the Holocaust was not that bad.

I could go on and on, but then again, just check out his website, he has plenty of articles, book reviews, and answers to his Q&A section on his slant of Israel and the Jews.

Im not saying they are perfect or squeaky clean, but Mr.Sungenis really doesnt know how to make the Jews jealous for the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Here is a quote from Mr. Sungenis in his April 2007 Q&A, question 17 titled-“Dealing with the Holocaust” that sums it all up-
“The Jews are no better than anybody else, those days are over.”

I would go somewhere else to learn about the end times.


#7

Hi french,

The doctrine of the Church on end times is well summarized in paragraphs 668 to 682 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c2a7.htm#677

Here’s a sample paragraph :

  1. The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection. The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God’s victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven. God’s triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.

If you don’t have a copy of the Catechism, you can consult it on line at

scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc2.htm

The French edition can be found at

vatican.va/archive/FRA0013/_INDEX.HTM


#8

I am not sure what your point is. Sungenis does have fairly strong opinions on secular Jews and Talmudic Judaism, as well as Zionism. Much of his views do stem from his understanding of Scripture, especially Romans, but many other books as well. As to his views on end times, these do play in somewhat, but the interpretation of Apocalypse really does not depend on his views on Judaism too much.

True, he rejects a post-millenial scheme with Israel being prophetically reinstated as a nation, but this really never was a Catholic view. He does not reject the view out of any feelings towards Jews, but rather because the Church does not , nor has taught that. The Church has consistently taught an amillenial view since at least Augustine. The future Israel is the heavenly Israel. As St. Bellarmine pointed out ( Disputations on the Controversies Over the Christian Faith Against the Heretics of the Day):

Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com


#9

Try these books:

Trial, Tribulation & Triumph: Before, During, and After Antichrist: by Desmond A. Birch

The Rapture Trap: by Paul Thigpen

Will Catholics Be Left Behind: (sorry don’t remember the author)

Stillkickin


#10

Carl Olson - both the author and the book are excellent! :thumbsup:


#11

A relatively recent apologist (and most effective, IMHO) is John Martignoni whose website www.biblechristiansociety.com has many free talks in MP3 format (a donation is appreciated, of course). Among them is an excellent overview of what the Church believes, in juxtaposition to the Protestant view of End Times Theology. Check it out here


#12

My point is why read prophecy material concerning Israel from a person who rejects zionism, that is, the Jews coming from all nations to the land of Israel.

And what kind of understanding does he get stemming from the book of Romans? No where in that epistle do I see any evidence of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob being through with the land of Israel and the people. Paul even states in Romans 11 that all Israel will be save when the deliverer will come out of Zion. Which jives with other prophecies of the Messiah coming to save Israel at his coming as the Lion of the tribe of Judah, both in the old and new testament scriptures.


#13

Good luck.:blessyou:
The study of the end times topic was the culmination to my conversion to Catholicism


#14

Here’s what the Church teaches:

When each of us dies, our souls are immediately taken to the presence of God and judged. This is called the Particular Judgment. At this point we begin our eternal destiny. If we are going to hell, our souls go directly there. If we are deemed worthy of heaven, our souls will go directly to heaven, or if we are going to heaven but are in need of purification, we may go to Purgatory first for a while (everyone in Purgatory will eventually go to heaven). Whatever our fate, our souls will stay there (heaven or hell) until the end of time, at which time the Second Coming will occur.

At the Second Coming at the end of time, those Christians still alive will be taken to heaven (what some Protestants think of as of the rapture). Then will occur the General Judgment. At that time the souls of the living and the dead will be reunited with their bodies and brought together in God’s presence and judged before all. Those who have already been judged in the Particular Judgment will be brought from wherever their souls were -heaven, hell or Purgatory-- and have their judgment confirmed before all, so that both the justice and mercy of God will be manifest to all.

After this, time and Purgatory will be no more and all will enter with their souls and bodies into their eternal destiny, either hell or heaven.

This is an extremely bare-bones sketch, so if you want to get the details, see the five articles I linked below:

rosary-center.org/ll57n1.htm
rosary-center.org/ll57n2.htm
rosary-center.org/ll57n3.htm
rosary-center.org/ll57n4.htm
rosary-center.org/ll49n6.htm

In addition, you have to learn to recognize erroneous teachings about the End Times popularized by fundamentalists. In other words, toss out the “Left Behind” and “Late, Great Planet Earth” baloney. This view has been clearly and definitively condemned by the Catholic Church:

Decree of the Holy Office dated July 21, 1944:

"In recent times on several occasions, this Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office has been asked what must be thought of the system of mitigated Millenarianism, which teaches, for example, that Christ the Lord before the final judgment, whether or not preceded by the resurrection of the many just, will come visibly to rule over this world.

“The answer is: The system of mitigated Millenarianism cannot be taught safely.”

Here are some resources to help you develop some discernment in these areas:

catholic.com/library/rapture.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0011fea2.asp
catholic.com/library/false_profit.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0211fea3.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0001fea1.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1995/9510ntg.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0209fea5.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9812chap.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0304bt.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9705chap.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1994/9409fea4.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1994/9410fea2.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0009bite.asp
carl-olson.com/rapture_articles.html

Finally, here are some resources to help you develop a well-balanced Catholic understanding of the Book of Revelation, biblical prophecy, and eschatology. All of these are HIGHLY recommended:

The Navarre Bible Commentary on the Book of Revelation
The Navarre Bible Commentary on the Major Prophets
The Navarre Bible Commentary on the Minor Prophets
amazon.com/gp/search/ref=br_ss_hs/102-2381711-9848916?platform=gurupa&url=index%3Dblended&keywords=navarre+bible

The End: The Book of Revelation, tape/CD series and Study Guide by Dr. Scott Hahn.
saintjoe.com/more-info.php?product=177&Title=The-End

The Lamb’s Supper, by Dr. Scott Hahn.
amazon.com/gp/product/0385496591/sr=8-1/qid=1148926012/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-2381711-9848916?%5Fencoding=UTF8

Rapture: The End Times Fiction that Leaves Truth Behind, by David Curie
sophiainstitute.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=SIP&Product_Code=72-5&Category_Code=Current

Revelation Revealed, tapes/CD series by Michael Barber
saintjoe.com/search-result.php

Coming Soon, a book on this same topic by Michael Barber
amazon.com/Coming-Soon-Unlocking-Revelation-Applying/dp/193101826X

Introduction To Prophecy, CD set by Steve Wood
familylifecenter.net/cart/product_detail.cfm?Id=613


#15

Fidelis:

Thanks for linking all the resources.

It appears that the online links support the idea that the amillenial view is the correct one (per the Church). I also noticed that many of the books you recommend would present a partial preterist view- i.e., spefically Hahn and Barber teach that the millenium occurs from the reign of David to the destruction of the temple. This is an interesting view perhaps, but certainly not the traditional Catholic view. Just curious why you choose this interpretation?

The traditional Catholic (amillenial, Augustinian) view places the millenium as a symbolic time period starting at the cross and continuing until the first coming- i.e, it is NOW. Not in the OT. This seems important to me, as it concerns today’s Church directly, as well as the world in which it exists.

This is consistent with Pope Benedict XVI 's vrecent statement:

"John addresses them, showing acute pastoral sensitivity to the persecuted Christians, whom he exhorts to be steadfast in the faith and not to identify with the pagan world. His purpose is constituted once and for all by the revelation, starting with the death and Resurrection of Christ, of the meaning of human history. "

Which means Revelations concerns history since the time of Christ’s death (i.e., the Church age). This effectively rules out a preterist view that puts the Apocalypse in the OT (though the statement from Benedict XVI itself may be too general to be sure, but sure seems clear to me). It is consistent with the amillenial view, and could be consistent with a post-millenial view. The council of Euphesus and the Catholic catechism are consistent with the amillenial view, as developed by St. Augustine.

I have already recommended The Aocalypse of St. John, The Catholic Apologetics Study Bible, Volume II, by Robert A. Sungenis, Ph.D. The link is a book review by me.

I also did a book review of one of your recommendations, Coming Soon, by Michael Barber.

I am currenly reading the Book of Destiny by Rev. Kramer. I am just starting it.

Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com


#16

Everyone here should know that there are very serious issues surrounding Sungenis’ work. His book on Revelation was denied an imprimatur.

Sungenis and his supporters have been shown to be quite deceptive in the matter. They are trying desperately to convince people that they are the persecuted victims in the matter and that their words have been misconstrued. You can read through the posts yourself and make up your own mind:
forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=164910

I was unaware of this crowd until only recently. I have attended Michael Barber’s Bible studies in San Diego and read his wonderful book–which, by the way, does have an imprimatur. Barber is thorougly orthodox as those who know him or who have heard him on Catholic Answers radio well know. I saw Mark Wyatt’s review of his book and the more I read, the more I was shocked to discover the kinds of things Bob Sungenis–who wrote a book I loved on sola Scriptura–is now up to. It’s very sad.

Please be careful to note that Sungenis, and his supporters such as Wyatt are extremely suspicious of everyone, finding heresy lurking in places where it is clearly not–including, it would seem, in the Catechism. Seriously, read Sungenis and decide for yourself if I’m mistaken.
h1.ripway.com/markjwyatt/Imprimatur_4.pdf

Do make sure you read what came before this response from Sungenis–you’ll find he tweaks the facts a bit.

So apparently one cannot trust Ratzinger (who oversaw the Catechism), Schonborn, Scott Hahn, or anyone else, except apparently Bob Sungenis. He probably means well, but there are very serious problems in his thought.

Please be careful out there folks. Don’t believe everything you hear–read it yourself.


#17

By the way, here’s that CA show with Michael Barber (with Brant Pitre). You can listen to the podcast here…

catholic.com/radio/event.php?event=4676&full=true&date=2007-06-25


#18

:frowning: I agree with Karl Adam. Sungenis is a smart man but if it has anything to do with Jewish people. Well, I just wouldn’t trust him on that. :wink:

You should read these~

wquercus.com/sungenis/

ratzingerfanclub.com/blog/2006/10/robert-sungenis-jews-update.html

ratzingerfanclub.com/blog/2006/09/michael-forrest-on-sungenis-and-jews.html

ratzingerfanclub.com/blog/2007/01/response-to-bob-sungenis-part-ii.html


#19

Quite honestly, I doubt that is anything unusual. I am sure books are denied imprimatur on the first try all the time. Robert is still working to get an imprimatur. In the mean time he has released the book, and it is an excellent work.

No one has said, including myself, that Barber is not a very orthodox Catholic. Again, you are getting your feathers all ruffled because I did not recommend his book.

Why not read Robert’s book for yourself. Maybe you will agree that his book on the Apocalypse is also worth loving.

Slow down, Karl. I guess it is not what it seems. The document you linked is Robert Sungenis’ response to the imprimatur issue, and in it, he states that the USCCB Adult Catechism (not the Vatican’s catechism) does have some questionable material in it (thus reference to Ratzinger is superfluous). It teaches that the Mosaic covenant is still salvific for Jews, and Robert believes that this is part of the reason he was denied imprimatur (i.e., because he did not teach that, and knowing him he will not teach that). Note that the bishop’s refusal letter specifically referenced the pages where this is taught in the Adult catechism.

Again, Ratzinger has nothing to do with it. Schonborn,well that’s a seperate issue, not sure how you got him involved. As to Scott Hahn, no one has said that. Read my book review to understand why I did not recommend Barber’s book. Not recommending for specific reasons is much different than saying that someone is not to be trusted. And Scott Hahn is only indirectly involved.

Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com


#20

You know Bill Cork is a 7th Day Adventist? He was a member of the Catholic Church, but is no longer. Not the best witness.

Chris Blosser appears to be more interested in politics than Catholicism, and a very pro-Isreal politics at that. He can’t let theology interfere with his politics. Here is a quote from this link:

"Christopher Blosser of the so-called Ratzinger Fan Club (not a fan of Benedict on the matter of war), while by no means as reckless as the other two publicly, has consistently supported and deliberately incited their rants behind the scenes, as well as opposed the Vatican and Just War teaching relative to this war of aggression, and, relying on the arguments and writings of the major neconservatives completely, has been a reflexive apologist for the Bush administration’s disastrous policies which has ended in so much blood. "

Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com


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