Enoch, Elijah and Moses?


#1

I’m still thinking and researching the location of Heaven and again stumbled onto sites talking about Enoch, Elijah and Moses being sent to Heaven. How could they live there for thousands of years, much less without any oxygen if they weren’t glorified?


#2

Heaven doesn’t seem to have a location that would be meaningful to us. It’s not a place somewhere in the universe that we could visit by space travel, or even dimensional travel should that turn out to be a real thing.

We know that eventually we will have bodies there, so it presumably includes some kind of space for those bodies to inhabit, but primarily Heaven involves being in the unveiled presence of God.

If Enoch, Elijah, and Moses were assumed into some sort of unearthly realm without dying, then presumably God made provision for their bodies. I don’t think lack of oxygen would be a problem. Either whatever space they inhabit is supplied with oxygen and food or whatever, or their bodies no longer require it. I see no reason why they could not have glorified bodies, even if they could not enter into the Beatific Vision until after Jesus’ Resurrection.


#3

Faith.
Dear one.
Get involved in some ministry at your parish, help the poor, visit the sick, join the choir.
These endless threads requiring proof of this that or another do not edify.
Work in the vineyard to glorify God on earth so that you will enjoy the beatific vision yourself in heaven. Then you will have the answers to everything and every question you ever dreamed of.
love you,
Clare


#4

Moses should be in Heaven.

Enoch and Elijah are waiting to return but not exactly sure where they are but must be happy.


#5

Amen!


#6

:shrug:


#7

People care about you.

Help yourself and learn the answer your many questions by being the hands and feet of Christ.
For by being compassionate, we attain mercy, and by extension, heaven. God bless you.
It’s not necessary to understand the universe. Just be thankful to God for it.

Peace. :signofcross:


#8

What Clare is so kindly saying is that there are no answers here for a question that has no bearing on our faith journey while in this life.

God knows how to take care of his saints. Oxygen is the least of their worries.

No one alive has the answers you seek. So let it go.


#9

We know they did not go to Heaven prior to the death and resurrection of Jesus becasue the gates of Heaven were closed.

CCC 637 In his human soul united to his divine person, the dead Christ went down to the realm of the dead. He opened Heaven’s gates for the just who had gone before him.


#10

Why couldn’t God apply the merits of Christ’s sacrifice to them before the event happened according to our human timeline? After all, isn’t this what God did for Mary in the Immaculate conception?

We know this from the Catechism:

402 All men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as St. Paul affirms: “By one man’s disobedience many (that is, all men) were made sinners”: “sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned.”

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”. By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice.

but we also have this:

491 Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, “full of grace” through God, was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854:

The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.

So Mary was redeemed before Christ died for us. How could she have been redeemed before the act of redemption happened, according to the human time line? Maybe because of this:

600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy.

So why are you limiting God by saying he could not have applied merits of Christ’s sacrifice to someone like Elijah before the event happened when we know he did do this for Mary by preserving her from Original sin. The Church has not said definitively one way or the other, like with Mary, but i don’t think it is out of the realm of possibility.

Here is a link on the topic I found interesting.


#11

[quote=Xystus]The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.
[/quote]

The Mystery of the Incarnation indeed was the cause of God bestowing a “singular grace and privilege” on the BVM. It was NOT for her own sake, just as it could NOT be for the sake of the persons of Elijan, Enoch and Moses.

It is because some Christians FAIL to grasp the awesome mystery of the Incarnation, that they mistakenly believe God interrupts time willy nillly, just to justify a mistaken interpretation of difficult or obscure passages of Scripture.

Church doctrine trumps dubious interpretations of Scripture.


#12

I never said God interrupts time willy nilly and i am not alone in thinking it is possible that the Bible means what it says when it states

2 Kings 2:11 “Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.”

1 Maccabees 2:58 “Elijah because of great zeal for the Law was taken up into heaven.”

Minds much greater than my own seem to think this is a possibility.

all moments of time being present in their immediacy to God does not equal willy nilly time interruption.


#13

Enoch and Elijah need not have ascended into the ‘heaven of heavens’ or, in other words, to that heaven where Christ ascended too upon his ascension into heaven, the heaven of God’s throne where Christ sits at the right hand of the Father above all of creation and where the blessed and holy angels dwell. This heaven is most likely the heaven which St Paul speaks about when he says that he knew a man, himself presumably, who was caught up to the third heaven. A third heaven implies that there are a first and second heaven which Genesis 1 speaks about in the creation of the heavens and the earth. As another poster mentioned quoting the CCC, Christ opened the gates of heaven by his death, resurrection, and ascension into heaven. Until this time, the heaven of the blessed saints and holy angels was closed to all human beings. St Paul says that Christ “is the head of the body, the Church; his is the beginning the first-born from the dead, that in everything he might be pre-eminent” (Colossians 1: 18). The holy people of old such as Enoch, Elijah, and Moses are members of Christ’s body which is his Church. Now, St Paul says that Christ is pre-eminent in everything. But, how could Christ be pre-eminent in everything such as ascending into the heaven of the blessed if Enoch or Elijah ascended there before him? It doesn’t make sense. Jesus is the redeemer of the whole human race including Enoch and Elijah.

Some fathers of the Church understand Elijah being caught up in a whirlwind into heaven as being transplanted to another place such as the earthly paradise where Adam and Eve were placed by God when he created them, but not the heaven of the blessed. It is not unusual for prophets to be lifted up by the Spirit of the Lord and transplanted to some other place such as happened to the prophet Ezekiel or Philip in the Acts of the Apostles (cf. 8: 39-40). This may have happened to Elijah as well not a few times before being caught up by a whirlwind to heaven as 1 Kings 18:12 may seem to suggest (or other instances recorded about the Elijah in the Bible which one could search for). After Elijah was caught up to heaven by a whirlwind, the sons of the prophets went to look for him for three days as they thought “it may be that the Spirit of the Lord has caught him up and cast him upon some mountain or into some valley” (2 Kings 2: 16).


#14

osv.com/TheChurch/EternalLife/Heaven/Article/TabId/2065/ArtMID/18504/ArticleID/14526/What-about-Enoch-and-Elijah.aspx


#15

Very good article from Fr. Ray Ryland. I agree with Fr Ryland that Enoch and Elijah did actually die the death of the body. The bible is clear that Moses did.

St Paul says " For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive" (1 Corin. 15:22). And “Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world, and by sin death; and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned” (Romans 5:12; cf. also sequence of Romans 5: 12 through 5:21). Christ is the universal redeemer of the whole human race and the ‘first-born of the dead’ (cf. Colossians 1:18). According to the catholic faith, Jesus and Mary are the only two we are certain about who are glorified body and soul in heaven.


#16

How can Mary and Jesus be bodily in heaven? Because they’re Glorified?


#17

Well, Jesus is God sooooooo :whistle:
Mary was sinless.

Read this by Fr. William Saunders, expert at EWTN

*We firmly believe that from the first moment of her conception Mary was free of all sin, including Original Sin, by a special favor of almighty God. The Archangel Gabriel recognized her as “full of grace,” “blessed among women” and “one with the Lord.” Mary had been chosen to be the Mother of our savior. By the power of the Holy Spirit, she conceived our Lord Jesus Christ, and through her, true God became also man, “The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.”

During her lifetime, although the Gospel citations are limited, Mary always presented our Lord to others: to Elizabeth and her son, John the Baptist, who leapt for joy in the womb at the presence of the Lord still in his own mother’s womb; to the simple shepherds as well as the wise Magi; and to the people at Cana, when our Lord acquiesced to His mother’s wish and performed the first miracle.

Moreover, Mary stood at the foot of the cross with her Son, supporting Him and sharing in His suffering through her love as only a mother could do. Finally, she was with the Apostles at Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit descended and the Church was born. Therefore, each of us can step back and see Mary as the faithful servant of God who shared intimately in the birth, life, death and resurrection of our Lord.

For these reasons we believe that the promises our Lord has given to each of us of sharing eternal life, including a resurrection of the body, were fulfilled in Mary. Since Mary was free of Original Sin and its effects (one of which is corruption of the body at death), since she shared intimately in the life of the Lord and in His passion, death and resurrection, and since she was present at Pentecost, this model disciple appropriately shared in the bodily resurrection and glorification of the Lord at the end of her life. (Note that the solemn definition does not specify whether Mary physically died before being assumed or just was assumed; it simply states, “Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life…”)*


#18

Well, Jesus is fully God and fully man. How can the man part breathe there? Ditto for Mary? Again, because they’re Glorified?

Richca, do you have any idea?


#19

OK, ignore common sense.
I give up.


#20

Yes, Jesus and Mary are bodily in heaven because they are glorified for one thing. In your original post you say you are contemplating the location of heaven presumably the heaven we hope to go to someday, this is a good question. In the language of scripture, heaven is upwards, i.e, above the earth even as the created heavens are where the sun, moon, and stars are located and from where the rain falls. It is an article of the catholic faith which we recite in the creed and as it is told in scripture that Jesus ascended into heaven:
"And when he had said this, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight.
And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes,
and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.” (Acts 1: 9-11).

St Paul says that Christ ascended far above all the heavens (Ephesians 4:10).

Heaven is also the term scripture uses as the place of God’s throne. This would be as it were the 'highest heaven, ’ the third heaven of which St Paul speaks of. “Heaven is my throne and the earth is my footstool” (Isaiah 66:1). God is seen depicted as the King and Lord of creation, enthroned above it as it were as the throne of a king on earth in his palace is placed above his subjects who are beneath it. However, also, God is everywhere and creation is in God for ‘in him we live and move and have our being.’ Scripture also speaks of God’s glory as above the heavens.

The scholastic theologians speculated about heaven of course as well as its location and what could be known about it from Holy Scripture which is the word of God. The common opinion then was that the heaven we are speaking of and to which we hope to go to someday wherein the holy angels also dwell as their natural abode is an actual corporeal place created by God, the highest created heaven which they called the empyrean heaven. This highest heaven is beyond the visible heavens, it is invisible. Although maybe this invisible heaven where the blessed souls and holy angels enjoy the beatific vision of God is in the same place as the visible heavens but which is invisible. There are quite a few references in the Holy Scriptures such as the book of Revelation and John’s visions where it says that the heavens were opened or parted; the heavens were also opened at Jesus’ baptism. Does this mean the heaven of God’s dwelling beyond the visible heavens or a vision of the heaven of God’s dwelling in the created visible heavens but which is invisible? Good question. This is something one can contemplate while reading, studying, and prayerfully meditating on scripture as well as reading what the fathers of the church, doctors and saints may have said or speculated about.

At the end of the world, God is going to create a new heavens and a new earth or renew the present one. And this is going to be heaven for us while at the same time enjoying the beatific vision.

The scriptures speak of the angels as the host of heaven or occupants of the heavens (cf. Psalm 148) and the bible begins with the words “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.” It seems that the heaven the blessed souls go to after departing this life and the abode of the holy angels is some created place. This heaven is also called God’s dwelling or throne in the sense I believe that God dwells there in a special manner to the blessed. In another sense, God’s ‘natural home’ as it were is not something created as he is uncreated and not in a place as he is everywhere. Only God is everywhere which means that creatures must be somewhere, a place I think created by God. This last is a more deeply involved philosophical and theological question.


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