Eternal Security/OSAS

I fully understand the Church’s position on salvation. We are saved by the blood of Jesus, but that salvation is not absolute. We can choose to separate ourselves from that and enter a state of sin, which is why the Sacrament of Reconciliation is absolutely necessary. No one knows who goes to Heaven and who does not; we can only hope that we may die in a state of grace and by the mercy of God, be granted admission into the heavenly Kingdom.

It seems like most so-called “non-denominational” Christians believe in eternal security/osas, that is salvation is absolute and no matter what we do, nothing can prevent us from entering Heaven as long as we believe in Jesus. While Catholics pray for the souls of the dead, they don’t, and instead pray for the families. I think this is also due to the fact that they believe everyone is saved, and that our prayers have no effect on that.

As I said, I understand the Church’s belief, but I have trouble refuting those who adhere to OSAS. I know it’s an unbiblical man-made doctrine, but can’t seem to point out why. Can you please provide some good scripture-based counter arguments? Thank you :thumbsup:

Hope is not wishful thinking, it is one of the cardinal virtues. We can have better than wishful thinking about our salvation–we can have a “founded hope”–founded on faith in Christ and his promises. If we begin by mischaracterizing Church teaching, even if inadvertently, it will inevitably lead from misunderstanding to doubt then to rejection of what we think we know instead of knowing and relying on the truth. :slight_smile:

It seems like most so-called “non-denominational” Christians believe in eternal security/osas, that is salvation is absolute and no matter what we do, nothing can prevent us from entering Heaven as long as we believe in Jesus. While Catholics pray for the souls of the dead, they don’t, and instead pray for the families. I think this is also due to the fact that they believe everyone is saved, and that our prayers have no effect on that.

Many have drifted into believing that no one is bad enough to deserve hell–a philosophy born of self-interest and slothfulness instead of real love and compassion. One look at the daily paper or even a glimpse into our own hearts ought to tell us that we are not perfected saints but are deeply wounded in mind, heart and spirit and in need of daily conversion. This is why Jesus taught us to pray “Give us this day our daily bread.” He wasn’t talking about the food on our tables, but the daily grace to “take up our cross and follow him.” People who think we’re all good enough–which sounds so democratic but is really an excuse for our denial of our sinful state, are in denial of Scripture itself, and of reason. Such people need to deny our need for sacramental confession or that we can lose our salvation to make themselves feel all right about themselves.

As I said, I understand the Church’s belief, but I have trouble refuting those who adhere to OSAS. I know it’s an unbiblical man-made doctrine, but can’t seem to point out why. Can you please provide some good scripture-based counter arguments? Thank you :thumbsup:

St. Paul gives us very solemn warnings about the faithful falling into sin in 1 Corinthians 10 but he begins his admonitions in chapter 9:

[24] Do you not know that in a race all the runners compete, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it.
[25] Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
[26] Well, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air;
[27] but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

He sums up his warnings against falling back into deliberate sin by saying:

[8] We must not indulge in immorality as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in a single day.
[9] We must not put the Lord to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents;
[10] nor grumble, as some of them did and were destroyed by the Destroyer.
[11] Now these things happened to them as a warning, but they were written down for our instruction, upon whom the end of the ages has come.
[12] Therefore let any one who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.

If God intended that we should be made wholly unable to sin after baptism there would be no need for St. Paul to write to his fellow Christians warning them about presuming upon God’s mercy by thinking that because God has promised us salvation we are free to sin. Our salvation is dependent on our cooperation with God. Anyone who believes he can sin if he wishes and still be saved or that he cannot sin is only fooling himself.

OSAS is a dangerous error, just for instance, Our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ Himself tells is in Revelation 3:5 (All from the KJB by the way. :D)

**" 5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

[FONT=Georgia]Now…according to the Word of God, in order to be saved ones name must be written in the Book of Life, but here we see Jesus Himself saying that He will indeed blot some names out of that book. That’s not OSAS…[/FONT]
**

While I agree with what you’re saying, the easy workaround for this passage is to claim that the people not in the book of life are those who didn’t confess the sinner’s prayer and become saved. Believing in OSAS still discounts a significant amount of the New Testament’s teachings on the subject, but I don’t believe this passage could be used to convince someone.

(For the record, I believe your interpretation is correct, just that it can’t be used to convince someone.)

Personally, Paul’s admission that he is working out his salvation in fear and trembling is all the proof I need to know that my salvation can be lost.

There is no escaping this:

2 Peter 2[20] For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
[21] For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.

Peter goes on to describe those who fall back into grave sin as dogs eating their vomit.

The truth is that God loves us too much to let us deceive ourselves into thinking that we cannot be lost through unrepentent sin. Only that which is holy can enter heaven. Jesus commanded us to be holy. If holiness is merely imposed, then his commandment would make no sense because we could not achieve it nor be responsible before God is we lack it.

The OSAS idea was born in the mind of John Calvin who believed in double predestination–a teaching most OSAS people know nothing about and would deny they believe if told about it. They’re theology is weak, but that doesn’t stop them from culling Bible verses to try to support what the whole and balanced reading of Scripture plainly denies–that we cannot lose our salvation after a one time “acceptance of Jesus as personal Lord and Savior”–a phrase found nowhere in Scripture but was invented out of thin air by goodness only knows who–hardly solid ground on which to risk one’s eternal happiness.

Most of the letters of the NT, by there very existence, absolutely REFUTE the man-made doctrine of OSAS. Those letters were written to Christians. If OSAS was correct, there is simply no need to even write the letters! Those people who receive the letters are saved! And yet, throughout the letters are warnings about damnation and judgment if they do not amend their ways.

It is beyond belief that people don’t recognize OSAS as the nonsense it is.

One minor nitpick. We can know who is in Heaven, when God reveals to the Church someone who is then declared a saint. We know that person IS in Heaven.

:):thumbsup::smiley:

Appearances may be deceptive: while that may be the view of the loudest group, I am not at all sure that it is the view of the largest.

The Bible frequently refers to salvation as something not yet complete:
Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you,

1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife.
…]
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

The Bible also refers to salvation as something which can be lost:
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

This is all logical of course, because humans are engineered to change over time. OSAS would be a ticket for unrepentant child molesters to get into Heaven merely because they had felt genuinely moved by a sermon which they had heard decades earlier.

Greetings,

Thanks for everyone’s posts. I enjoy reading clear thinking ( i.e. Catholic theology.)

To elaborate on St. Paul’s words:

[LEFT]**Saint Paul clearly states that he could lose his salvation. **[/LEFT]
[LEFT]We know that Saint Paul is a Christian (see Galatians 2:19-20), but even he points out how he could lose his salvation if he were to turn from the Gospel. In 1 Corinthians 9:27 Saint Paul says “ …but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.” RS

However, some people will contest that the word “disqualified” refers to Paul loosing his extra merit and glory and does not refer to Paul loosing his salvation. So, the key is to prove what this word means. The word “disqualified” is translated from the Greek word “ADOKIMOS” (Strong’s # 96.) Saint Paul makes the meaning of this word clear in his second letter to the Corinthians.

[/LEFT]
[LEFT]2 Corinthians 13:5
“Examine yourselves, to see whether you are holding to your faith. Test yourselves. Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you? —unless indeed you fail to meet the test!” RSV

[/LEFT]
[LEFT]Here Saint Paul uses the same Greek word “ADOKIMOS” (#96), except here, in English, it is translated as “fail.” The context is clear. It refers to people who are spiritually lost and without the saving grace of Jesus Christ.

[/LEFT]
[LEFT]So, the question we must ask is, “What is lost in 1 Cor 9:27 ?” This word “ADOKIMOS” does not modify any reward that Saint Paul might have received, rather it modifies Saint Paul himself. 1 Corinthians 9:27 “ … lest … I myself should be disqualified (ADOKIMOS).” Therefore, St. Paul is speaking in 1 Cor 9:27 above how he could lose his salvation.

[/LEFT]
[LEFT]In summary, these three observations are unmistakable.[/LEFT]
[LEFT]Observation 1:
Saint Paul is a Christian and already has saving grace.
See Galatians 2:19-20.[/LEFT]
[LEFT]
Observation 2:
The Greek word “ADOKIMOS" (Strong’s # 96.) refers to someone who is spiritually lost and does not have saving grace.
See 2 Corinthians 13:5 above.[/LEFT]
[LEFT]
Observation 3:
Saint Paul points out that this condition could apply to him if he turns from the Gospel. See 1 Corinthians 9:27. [/LEFT]
[LEFT]
We must ask, “What does “ADOKIMOS” modify ?” “ADOKIMOS” does not modify any “rewards” that Saint Paul might have received. “ADOKIMOS” modifies Saint Paul himself.

[/LEFT]
[LEFT]1 Corinthians 9:27
“ …but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified (“ADOKIMOS”).” RSV

[/LEFT]
[LEFT] CONCLUSION[/LEFT]
[LEFT]Therefore, Salvation can be lost. A true security can be found, not by trusting in our own determination that our own faith is the true kind, but rather trusting in the Love of our Father in Heaven to faithfully guide His Church, and by trusting in the Truth of Promises of Jesus Christ, and by trusting in the Power of the Holy Spirit to effect those Promises.

Read more at
defendingthebride.com/mo/salvation.html

.
[/LEFT]

Here is another verse shows that he who does not endure till the end, will not be saved.

Matthew 24:3 But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Peace,
David

Once saved always saved is a rather useless truism. If you define the elect as those who will be in heaven with Jesus, then by definition they will persevere until the end. However one cannot know with certainty that he will persevere until he is dead. If you don’t persevere then it would be said that you were never saved in the first place.

Salvation can be lost after baptism, that is why Christ instituted the sacrament of penance saying to the twelve “Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.” John 20:23

If OSAS was true Adolf Hitler would be in heaven since he merely believed but also sinned massively

So, if anti-Catholics are right, ill meet them in Heaven with the German ruler :wink:

:thumbsup: Valid point.

If OSAS was true Adolf Hitler would be in heaven since he merely believed but also sinned massively

So, if anti-Catholics are right, ill meet them in Heaven with the German ruler

This argument fails because Hitler was originally a Catholic , which, in the eyes of a-Cs means he was never a Christian believer to begin with.

Though I know what you are trying to get at, this is not a good argument.

One of the best studies on this can be found at John Martignoni’s Once Saved Always Saved (His notes on this topic) and he has a free MP3 that covers this at Once Saved, Always Saved? which I very highly recommend.

I understand and agree. It was merely an attempt to get the person on the other side of the issue to begin thinking about his sources, which, to my experience among them, is not a passage that they are ever taught in any context…especially not this one.:slight_smile:

There is a lot of scriptural reasons that ES/OSAS cannot be correct doctrine. IMO an objective reading of the entire New Testament for context on salvation is the best of them.

Q. How do I know that once saved always saved is false?

A. Because God does not force anyone to go to heaven, and on their way to heaven someone might later choose hell by mortal sin

OSAS is part and parcel with the idea that we cannot become holy, we can only have our sins covered so God will no longer “see” them. I was taught this when I was in 5th grade at a non-deonominational church Sunday School, and even at the time I couldn’t understand how God could be “fooled” into thinking we were holy if we weren’t and how I he would never see my sins any more after I’d “accepted Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior.”

OSAS adherents don’t believe they cannot sin–rather, they believe that God doesn’t “see” their sins because their sins have been covered by Christ’s blood, once and for all. They base this idea on the fact that Christ presented himself to the Father once for all–misinterpreting this passage to mean that all their sins–from the moment of their conversion until death, are covered so they cannot be lost. Just wanted to clarify their belief so we aren’t titling at windmills instead of addressing the real issues involved. :slight_smile:

One of my favorite verses regarding this topic is Mathew, Chapter 13. The Parable of the Sower. I think the example of the seed landing on shallow soil in particular is hard to refute. Jesus explains that this soil represents those who have “fallen away.”

Once Saved Always Saved is a logical progression from the Saved by Faith Only theory. Salvation becomes viewed as a one off event, a singular point in our own private history. Salvation is no longer viewed as a process (being saved), it becomes viewed as a pivotal event, a crux as it were, much as the passion of our Lord also becomes viewed as a one off event in history, rather than a perpetual sacrifice.

The once saved always saved is in fact correct according to Catholic theology. The difference though is that the Catholic does not consider themselves once saved until they are in heaven, it is not a one off event in the past history of our lives, where we put up our hand to give our lives to Jesus. It is instead a process, a God lead process, through the history of our lives, which is only initiated at our baptism.

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