Eternal Security


#1

Eternal Security teaches that once a person becomes saved he/she cannot become unsaved. In other words, a person who is converted cannot become condemned again. If that is true; can you explain this…

1Timothy 3:1-6 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behavior, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

…the apostle Paul says that a person who wants to be a Bishop must not be a new convert, because he may get prideful, and fall under the same condemnation as the devil. According to eternal security a convert young or old cannot become condemned again, but here the apostle Paul “CLEARLY” states that a new convert who is made Bishop can be lifted up with pride, and fall into the same condemnation as the devil. So that being the case, how can eternal security be true?

Here is how it can be true…

**2Timothy 4:2-4 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. **

The eternal security doctrine is a lie that started in the garden in Eden. Eve told the serpent: “We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.” and the deceiver told the woman: “Ye shall not surely die.” The lie has not changed, today people are told they will sin, but they won’t die.

Those who teach false doctrine are ministers of the devil…

**2Corinthians 11:13-15 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. **

False teachers appear as though they are ministers of God, but the message they preach is not from God, and likewise they are not ministers of God.

In the name of Jesus,

Ken


#2

As I understand the belief, it has to do more with God’s soverignty than our response. He alone is soverign and he alone determines who will be “saved” and who will not. Some will be saved to “life” and others to damnation. So once God has chosen you…you’re “chosen” and you can’t “un-choose” yourself.


#3

Just as an aside, “Eternal Security” has never been a teaching of the Church. In fact, it has been anethemized.

Blessings,

Gerry


#4

#5

Hi Ken, you are simply overlooking the OSAS escape clause.

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.


#6

It is nothing like a rat in a wheel – nothing at all. And the suggestion that it is, is rather rude. :tsktsk:

At least the importance of grace appears to be recognized in the rudeness. And since a Sacrament is an outward sign, instituted by God, TO GIVE GRACE, that’s a very important realization. It’s also pertinent to a proper understanding of the Sacraments and their role and purpose.

And I never cease to be amused at the separation of a “relationship” with Jesus Christ and obedience to His Church, as if the two were somehow mutually exclusive. One wonders who it is thought Catholics are being obedient to, when His Church is His Mystical Body here on earth.

And I guess, with reference to the teachings of Holy Scripture, the Church got off to a very bad start, since the early members devoted themselves to the prayers, the Apostles’ teachings (even before they were in Holy Scripture) and the breaking of the bread, the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist. But it’s funny, because Holy Scripture does not make note of that as if it were something that had gone awry.

The Church deals in hopeful confidence, not false assurance and wishful thinking.

Blessings,

Gerry


#7

So this tells me they were never born again in the first place.


#8

According to Titus 1:2, God cannot lie!

God promised in Romans 10:13 to save me if I simply called upon Jesus’ name to save me and forgive my sins. “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” (Romans 10:13).

What would you say if I were to give you a Christmas present, but then tell you that I’m going to be watching you over the next year to see if your good enough to keep it? If your not good enough I’m going to take away your GIFT. Would that make any sense to you? Of course not, you’d say I’d been laying out in the sun too long. You’d say I was crazy! A “gift” is NOT a gift if there are ANY strings attached to it. A genuine gift is unconditional. God is not a con artist, He doesn’t give one day to take the next. The concept of losing one’s salvation is flawed in so many ways. I mean, at what point would a person lose it? How much sin is too much? Where would you cross the saved/unsaved line? The whole idea of losing one’s eternal security is preposterous. How can a person have eternal security if no one can be eternally secure? It just doesn’t add up. Let the Scriptures be your guide.


#9

Let’s look at some Scriptures then:

Matt. 7:21 - Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matt. 12:30-32 - He that is not with me, is against me: and he that gathereth not with me, scattereth. Therefore I say to you: Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but the blasphemy of the Spirit shall not be forgiven. And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

Luke 8:13 - Now they upon the rock, are they who when they hear, receive the word with joy: and these have no roots; for they believe for a while, and in time of temptation, they fall away.

Luke 12:42-46 - And the Lord said: Who (thinkest thou) is the faithful and wise steward, whom his lord setteth over his family, to give them their measure of wheat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom when his lord shall come, he shall find so doing. Verily I say to you, he will set him over all that he possesseth. But if that servant shall say in his heart: My lord is long a coming; and shall begin to strike the menservants and maidservants, and to eat and to drink and be drunk: The lord of that servant will come in the day that he hopeth not, and at the hour that he knoweth not, and shall separate him, and shall appoint him his portion with unbelievers.

Luke 15:11-32 – (I won’t put the whole thing here) in the parable of the prodigal son, we learn that we can be genuine sons of the Father, then leave home and die, then return and be described as “alive again.”

John 6:70-71 - And we have believed and have known, that thou art the Christ, the Son of God. Jesus answered them: Have not I chosen you twelve; and one of you is a devil?

John 15:1-10 - we can be in Jesus (a branch on the vine), and then if we don’t bear fruit, are cut off, wither up and die. Paul makes this absolutely clear in Rom. 11:21-23 - Well: because of unbelief they were broken off. But thou standest by faith: be not highminded, but fear. For if God hath not spared the natural branches, fear lest perhaps he also spare not thee. See then the goodness and the severity of God: towards them indeed that are fallen, the severity; but towards thee, the goodness of God, if thou abide in goodness, otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Rev. 2:4-5 – Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. 5Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Rev. 3:4 - But thou hast a few names in Sardis, which have not defiled their garments: and they shall walk with me in white, because they are worthy.

Rev. 3:11 - Behold, I come quickly: hold fast that which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Rev. 14:12 - Here is the patience of the saints, who keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev. 22:19 - And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from these things that are written in this book.


What would you say if I took that GIFT, played with it for a while, then came up to you later and said, “You know what, I really don’t want this.” Then I dropped that gift on the ground at your feet, stomped on it a few times and walked away? One doesn’t lose their salvation accidentally by crossing some line they didn’t know was there. They choose to walk away from it. Big difference.


#10

Matt. 7:21 - Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

John6. 40. And this is the** will **of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

God’s will is for each and every person to see Jesus as He is portrayed in the Word of God and to believe on Him. Many religions will come to us but they have “another Jesus.” We must believe on Jesus Christ as he is presented by God’s Holy Word, as the true and living God. And then we must simply believe on Jesus Christ the best we know how for salvation and forgiveness of sins.


#11

John 5:13, “These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life


#12

Here we go, round and round… :cool:

“He who endures to the end will be saved” - Matt. 24:13

The Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13). Full article here.


#13

If it turns out that a “saved” person really wasn’t “saved” after all, do they still have a chance to get “saved” again? Or it has he missed his chance altogether?


#14

From the CCC:

2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved.56 However, according to the Lord’s words—"Thus you will know them by their fruits"57—reflection on God’s blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.


#15

John10:27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

  1. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

john 6:33. For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

  1. Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

  2. And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall **never ** hunger; and he that believeth on me shall ** never **thirst.

  3. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

  4. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me ** I will in no wise cast out **

God is no liar (Titus 1:2; 2nd Peter 3:9).

Romans4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is **counted for righteousness. **

“Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law” -Romans 3:31

A believer who sins must give account to God at the judgment seat of Christ someday. No one is going to get away with anything.

1 Thessalonians4:6That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.


#16

Amen, I love those passages! :thumbsup: However, none of them say that I cannot at any time choose to turn my back on God and walk away. I do still have a free will, don’t I?

Romans 15:15; Hebrews 10:26-29; and many other verses give a warning against sin.

1 Cor 6:18 Shun immorality
Eph 4:25-32 put away falsehood, do not sin, no bitterness, no evil talk
James 4:1-4 you desire and do not have, so you kill, you covet and do not obtain, you ask and do not have…
Matt Chapters 5-7 - Jesus’ sermon, all about how to live as a Christian
Col 3:25 the wrongdoer will be paid back for the wrong he has done, and there is no partiality

What about all the passages that say “endure to the end”

Matt 10:22 he who endures to the end will be saved
Matt 24:13 he who** endures to the end** will be saved
Heb 10:35-36 do not throw away your confidence which has a great reward, you have need of endurance so that you may do the will of God and receive what is promised.
Heb 12:1 lay aside every weight…run with perseverance the race set before us

Romans 8:24-25 Hope that is seen is not hope, we hope for what we do not see we wait for it with patience

Rom 15:13 so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope
Romans 5:2 through Him we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in our hope of sharing the glory of God

Does Paul preach with absolute assurance of his salvation?

Phil 3:10 that I may know him and the power of His resurrection and may share his sufferings, becoming like Him in His death, that IF POSSIBLE I may obtain the resurrection of the dead. Not that I have already obtained, or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ has made me His own. One thing I do, forgetting what lies behind, but straining forward to what lies ahead.

I Cor 9:26-27 I do not run aimlessly…lest after preaching to others I myself might be disqualified

2 Cor 13:5-6 examine yourselves, test yourselves, unless you fail to meet the test

1 The 5:23 may the God of peace sanctify you wholly, that your spirits and souls and bodies be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord, Jesus Christ.

Why would Paul pray that God keep them blameless if that’s a given!?

Phil 2:12 as you have always obeyed…much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling

Heb 4:1-4, 11 While the promise of entering his rest remains…let us fear lest any of you be judged to have failed to reach it

Col 1:21-23 he has now reconciled you…provided you continue in the faith

What about the Book of Life?

Rev 20:15 if anyone’s name was not found in the book of life he was thrown into the lake of fire
Ps 69:28 let them be blotted out of the book of the living

Why would David ask God to take their names out if it cannot be done?

Rev 3:1-5 I know your works, you have the name of being alive but you are dead. Awake and strengthen what remains that is on the point of death. I have not found your works perfect in the sight of God. Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments and they shall walk with me in white for they are worth…He who conquers shall be clad thus…I will not blot His name out of the Book of Life.

Jesus CAN blot a person’s name out of the Book of Life!

Heb 10:38 Righteous one shall live by faith, if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.

Ez. 33:13-16 (cf Ez 18:21-24) Though I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but if he trusts in his righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds shall be remembered but in the iniquity that he has committed he shall die…though I say to the wicked you shall surely die, if you turn and walk in the statutes of life, he shall surely live, he shall not die.


#17

…continued

Salvation is a process, we must continually be saved, converted, growing in Christ. We have to pick up our cross and follow Him daily to be saved. We believe that we were saved when Jesus died on the cross, we also believe that are in the process of being saved, we also believe that we will be saved if we endure, persevere to the end. It is not a one-time event.

John 2:11 This, the first of his signs Jesus did in Cana …and his disciples believed in Him.
John 3:16 whosoever believes will have eternal life
John 6:9-14 Jesus feeds thousands
John 6:16 all disciples cross the sea of Capernaum
John 6:19 Jesus walks on the water
John 6:66 after this, many of His disciples drew back and no longer went about with Him.

Jesus disciples believed in Him, then they rejected Him.
I hope that you believe 2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching. What you’re doing is cherry-picking verses that sound good, but ignoring the verses that clearly teach the opposite of what you are trying to prove here. Either you believe the whole Bible is true, which means your salvation is only secure as long as you persevere, or not all of the Bible is true. There are just too many passages that tell me to endure to the end, keep myself from sin, etc… to believe that once I’ve asked Jesus into my heart, I’ve got my ticket to Heaven and I need not do another thing. You might be interested to know that for YEARS I was a staunch believer in eternal security. I used to debate this very thing, on your side of the fence. :cool:

I asked you upthread:

What would you say if I took that GIFT, played with it for a while, then came back to you later and said, “You know what, I really don’t want this.” Then I dropped that gift on the ground at your feet, stomped on it a few times and walked away?

I’d love to hear your answer to this.


#18

#19

Revelation 20:15, “And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”

Revelation 21:8, “But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”

For the wages of sin is death; but the GIFT OF GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE through Jesus Christ our Lord” (Romans 6:23).

“But not as the offence, so also is the FREE GIFT. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the FREE GIFT is of many offences unto justification” (Romans 5:15,16).

A Gift Has No Strings Attached

Romans 5:8, “But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.”

John 11:25, “Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:”

If i gave you a gift and then asked for money or said you must do something for me would it be a gift?

what if I came back later and said give that back would it have been a gift?

not to me.

God said he died for all sins past present and furture. He said it is finished. Done.

You have only 2 religions in the whole world the do and the done.
You must do something to get into heaven,or you belive that it was done for you. I like what Jesus said its finished DONE.

“Knowing that a man is NOT JUSTIFIED BY THE WORKS OF THE LAW, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and NOT BY THE WORKS OF THE LAW: for BY THE WORKS OF THE LAW SHALL NO FLESH BE JUSITIFIED” (Galatians 2:16).
How do you lose your salvation? Do you not sin any more. When do you sin to much that God takes it back? Paul said he strugles with the flesh. King David Broke all 10 comandments Lott Got drunk and had sex with his daughters.

Salvation is of God, NOT Dependent Upon Man’s Works

Romans 11:6 clarifies this matter, “And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But IF IT BE OF WORKS, THEN IT IS NO MORE GRACE: otherwise work is no more work.” If salvation comes by works, then it is NOT by God’s grace anymore. The whole reason that Jesus died on the cross is because we could not perform enough good works to get saved. There is NO amount of good deeds that can reconcile us to God. Only through Jesus Christ can anyone be saved. If it were possible for us to get to Heaven by living a good and upright life, then Jesus died for nothing. “I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, THEN CHRIST IS DEAD IN VAIN” (Galatians 2:21).


#20

If only those who endure to the end are truly saved, as is eternal security according to the Lordship Salvationist, then how is assurance even possible? According to them, it isn’t. The only assurance of persevering is to persevere! What they are attempting to do is keep the believer in a place of doubt so that, motivated by fear, they will do good works. But is this really their aim? Surely we have been freed from sin but there is a huge difference between thinking I am free from sin so therefore I do not sin and being free from sin because I have died to the fact that I do sin. The former is a delusion and the latter the only way to godliness sinful man has ever known for we were crucified with Christ and our sin dealt with by Him who said, “It is finished!” Place a man under the principle of law (do this and then I will do that) and you will get nothing but more sin – “for the strength of sin is the law” (1 Cor 15:56). Perhaps it could be said that this is, more accurately, their true goal for false doctrine inevitably begets false practice.

  The continuous self-examination that Lordship Salvationists encourage is nothing short of heresy. Surely we are to examine ourselves in regard to our Christian walk – our own work – and well may we doubt but never should we question our salvation for that brings His work into question! For a believer to say, “Am I really saved?” is to say, “Did Jesus really die for my sins?”

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