Eucharist crumbs falling on the floor


#21

[quote="ProVobis, post:19, topic:208456"]
Thanks for this. However, I've heard of a few doing exactly this with no favorable results. The only hope in many cases is for a new pastor and/or new bishop.

[/quote]

People shouldn't be discouraged. I know its hard, but the only way for abuses to end is if we actually do something. Non-stop complaining on CAF won't change a thing. Running away from parishes also won't change a thing. If we expect change, we should effect change, not run away from it.


#22

[quote="PJM, post:20, topic:208456"]
Friend this is a GRAVE abuse that actually invalidates the Mass. It becomes a ilicit and INVALID Mass because of invalid form. Further were this a vaild form: Jesus in His Entireity would be whole and complete in every tiny fragment.

I strongly suggest that you AT ONCE contact your Bishops Office, department of the Liturgy. I repeat this is a MOST SERIOUS an GRAVE abuse.

Code of Canon Law:
Art. 3.

THE RITES AND CEREMONIES OF THE EUCHARISTIC CELEBRATION

Can. 924 §1. The most holy eucharistic sacrifice must be offered with bread and with wine in which a little water must be mixed.

§2. The bread must be only wheat and recently made so that there is no danger of spoiling.

§3. The wine must be natural from the fruit of the vine and not spoiled.

**Can. 925 **Holy communion is to be given under the form of bread alone, or under both species according to the norm of the liturgical laws, or even under the form of wine alone in a case of necessity.

Can. 926 **According to the ancient tradition of the Latin Church, the priest is to use unleavened bread in the eucharistic celebration whenever he offers it.**

Love and prayers

Pat

Send me a PM if you have other qustions PJM

[/quote]

I don't think anyone is arguing about the unleavened bread requirement for the Roman Catholic Church! I read what you cited and see nothing in there that says the bread must be in the form of a compressed wafer.


#23

[quote="ConstantineTG, post:16, topic:208456"]
So just give up then?
You shouldn't be complaining about abuses in the Church if you yourself are seeing it and letting it happen. You are as guilty as those who actually perform the abuse.

Wow, this is amazing. People have died for this faith, and we can't even be bothered to fight for something like this? And then we go on internet forums and complain non-stop about abuses and then refuse to do anything about it.

The planet I live on, you have to do something for something to happen. Things do not fix themselves.

[/quote]

how can i be guilt of something that a priest has refused to listen? i have talked to priests about the abuses in the Church. what i got was hatefull response and the priest just walked out on me. and i was respectfull. but he became angry because priests dont like to be corrected.

the one thing you can do is to stop supporting a Church that commit these abuses and not be part of it.


#24

[quote="wisdomseeker, post:23, topic:208456"]
how can i be guilt of something that a priest has refused to listen? i have talked to priests about the abuses in the Church. what i got was hatefull response and the priest just walked out on me. and i was respectfull. but he became angry because priests dont like to be corrected.

the one thing you can do is to stop supporting a Church that commit these abuses and not be part of it.

[/quote]

I've had rude, flippant, and angry responses from priests, too, but we are still obligated to voice concerns, especially in the case of such a grave abuse!

Please make an appointment to discuss this in person with your pastor. If he won't hear you, write a letter to the bishop. If you know anyone else at the parish concerned about this, get them to do the same. We MUST NOT for any reason allow our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament to be trampled underfoot! You're not being scrupulous; you're just being a good Catholic!

This is one fight I would not give up. :mad:


#25

[quote="PJM, post:20, topic:208456"]
Friend this is a GRAVE abuse that actually invalidates the Mass. It becomes a ilicit and INVALID Mass because of invalid form. Further were this a vaild form: Jesus in His Entireity would be whole and complete in every tiny fragment.

I strongly suggest that you AT ONCE contact your Bishops Office, department of the Liturgy. I repeat this is a MOST SERIOUS an GRAVE abuse.

Code of Canon Law:
Art. 3.

THE RITES AND CEREMONIES OF THE EUCHARISTIC CELEBRATION

Can. 924 §1. The most holy eucharistic sacrifice must be offered with bread and with wine in which a little water must be mixed.

§2. The bread must be only wheat and recently made so that there is no danger of spoiling.

§3. The wine must be natural from the fruit of the vine and not spoiled.

**Can. 925 **Holy communion is to be given under the form of bread alone, or under both species according to the norm of the liturgical laws, or even under the form of wine alone in a case of necessity.

Can. 926 **According to the ancient tradition of the Latin Church, the priest is to use unleavened bread in the eucharistic celebration whenever he offers it.**

Love and prayers

Pat

Send me a PM if you have other qustions PJM

[/quote]

What's sad is that my diocese is bursting at the seems with abuse(Orange, B. T Brown) and who is in charge of our Liturgy for the Diocese, NOT a priest, a woman no less (meaning no possibility of becoming a priest) who is allowed to dress in liturgical robes no less and issued a letter to disobey Rome when the letter came out that the Priest is to wash and rinse the items used in Communion.


#26

[quote="wisdomseeker, post:23, topic:208456"]
how can i be guilt of something that a priest has refused to listen?

[/quote]

Because when one sees an abuse and recognizes an abuse and allows it to continue gives their consent to the abuse. Isn't it a crime in the US to witness a crime and not report it? Same case here. You don't do anything, you're guilty as well. Also don't forget the saying, that for evil to succeed it only needs enough good men to do nothing.

[quote="wisdomseeker, post:23, topic:208456"]

i have talked to priests about the abuses in the Church. what i got was hatefull response and the priest just walked out on me. and i was respectfull. but he became angry because priests dont like to be corrected.

[/quote]

Many saints has suffered far worse for our faith. What we're asked of is not much. Benedictgal gave a good example of what happened with her. It came to a point the priest did not talk to her for a month. But in the end, she became trusted and respected and were able to affect change. We shouldn't give up at the first sign of trouble. Jesus asks us to love our neightbor. How is that loving your neighbor if you leave them to wallow in error?

[quote="wisdomseeker, post:23, topic:208456"]

the one thing you can do is to stop supporting a Church that commit these abuses and not be part of it.

[/quote]

Unless you're pouring in thousands of dollars a year into a parish, stopping supporting a parish on an individual level doesn't change anything. There are far more people who either quit the faith or become Protestant, but most parishes would live on. How are you any different than them from a parish contrubtion point of view? Remember, you were given the knowledge and the faith, much more is exepcted from you than the next guy who is blissfully ignorant of the abuses.


#27

[quote="PJM, post:20, topic:208456"]
Friend this is a GRAVE abuse that actually invalidates the Mass. It becomes a ilicit and INVALID Mass because of invalid form. Further were this a vaild form: Jesus in His Entireity would be whole and complete in every tiny fragment.

I strongly suggest that you AT ONCE contact your Bishops Office, department of the Liturgy. I repeat this is a MOST SERIOUS an GRAVE abuse.

Code of Canon Law:
Art. 3.

THE RITES AND CEREMONIES OF THE EUCHARISTIC CELEBRATION

Can. 924 §1. The most holy eucharistic sacrifice must be offered with bread and with wine in which a little water must be mixed.

§2. The bread must be only wheat and recently made so that there is no danger of spoiling.

§3. The wine must be natural from the fruit of the vine and not spoiled.

**Can. 925 **Holy communion is to be given under the form of bread alone, or under both species according to the norm of the liturgical laws, or even under the form of wine alone in a case of necessity.

Can. 926 **According to the ancient tradition of the Latin Church, the priest is to use unleavened bread in the eucharistic celebration whenever he offers it.**

Love and prayers

Pat

Send me a PM if you have other qustions PJM

[/quote]

Lets get things straight. Leavened bread will NOT invalidate a Mass. The Eucharist is the same in whatever rite. If leavened bread is valid matter somewhere within the Church (which it is), then its valid matter everywhere.

The issue here is leavened bread is strictly forbidden under normal circumstances and it is a grave abuse in the Latin Rite. To use it would be a sin, but it does not invalidate the Sacrament.

Exceptions of course are extraordinary situations. Like if there is a natural calamity and you lose access to unleavened bread, or if you are stranded on an island and all you have is leavened bread (and a priest with you of course) then it is allowed .


#28

[quote="pcg2, post:1, topic:208456"]
At a place where I go to mass we use actual bread for the Eucharist as opposed to wafers.

Unfortunately, one of the disadvantages of using real bread is that it is very easy for there to be crumbs that fall over the place during communion.

There have been multiple times where there have been crumbs that fall on the carpet at these masses. I sit in the front, so it's very easy for me to see them. I usually notice it after everyone has received and we are waiting for the alter to be cleared.

Now I usually get reeeeeally scrupulous about this. The reason is because of the fact that, while it is very easy for me to simply pick up the crumbs myself and either eat them or give them to the priest, the fact of the matter is that 1) I get so incredibly frustrated that the EMHC's and the priests are not more careful about this and 2) I get scrupulous about whether I picked up all the crumbs or not. There are usually other substances in the carpet that I sometimes mistake for crumbs, and it is very hard for me to distinguish between what is and what is not actual Eucharist (especially since it falls into a carpet-like material). So I end up scrupling over everything and feeling like I might sin if I don't do a somewhat-thorough "inspection" of the carpet after mass.

My question is this: how much of a moral obligation do I have in this matter? Should I just stop sitting in the front so that I don't see this? Should I just pick up stuff that is obviously the Eucharist and not scruple about other "particles"? Please help :shrug:

[/quote]

Do you go to a Protestant Church? You're better going to a church with real wafers as the Last Supper was the feast of unleavened bread ie. bread without yeast so it should be wafer or flat bread like matzos. This bible says yeast was identified with sin in the Bible, ie beware the yeast of the Pharisees and the yeast of Herod.

ucg.org/bible-faq/christians-celebrate-feast-unleavened-bread.htm


#29

[quote="PJM, post:20, topic:208456"]
Friend this is a GRAVE abus...

[/quote]

Dude - no need to scream and get all red in the face!! :rolleyes: We can all read just fine, and everyone here understands this could be a very serious situation. Let's just calm down now and get the right information for the OP so he knows how to proceed.

Walk calmly away from the keyboard, everything will be ok.

~Liza


#30

[quote="budgie2, post:28, topic:208456"]
Do you go to a Protestant Church? You're better going to a church with real wafers as the Last Supper was the feast of unleavened bread ie. bread without yeast so it should be wafer or flat bread like matzos. This bible says yeast was identified with sin in the Bible, ie beware the yeast of the Pharisees and the yeast of Herod.

ucg.org/bible-faq/christians-celebrate-feast-unleavened-bread.htm

[/quote]

Now, now. Lets not forget our Byzantine Rite bretheren use leavened bread

edit: why are you using a Protestant website as reference? :shrug:


#31

[quote="wisdomseeker, post:15, topic:208456"]
most priests are not going to listen to you. they do as they please. what planet do you live in?

[/quote]

The "protocol" for addressing abuse is to speak with the pastor; (if negative response) inform the bishop, including as much detail as possible, including any response from the pastor; (if negative response) write the CDW, attaching a copy of any replies thus far. benedictgirl has the address memorized I believe, or it is readily searchable. If the pastor overreacts then it may be a good idea to find another parish while pursuing resolution to the issue.


#32

[quote="ConstantineTG, post:27, topic:208456"]
Lets get things straight. Leavened bread will NOT invalidate a Mass. The Eucharist is the same in whatever rite. If leavened bread is valid matter somewhere within the Church (which it is), then its valid matter everywhere.

[/quote]

Yes but why do anything that will place doubts into their parishioners' minds? A visitor to that church might not even recognize it as a Catholic Mass. Can you blame them for not coming back?


#33

[quote="ProVobis, post:32, topic:208456"]
Yes but why do anything that will place doubts into their parishioners' minds? A visitor to that church might not even recognize it as a Catholic Mass. Can you blame them for not coming back?

[/quote]

I'm just stating the fact that leavened bread does not invalidate the Mass nor the Sacrament. Nothing more, nothing less.


#34

[quote="ConstantineTG, post:33, topic:208456"]
I'm just stating the fact that leavened bread does not invalidate the Mass nor the Sacrament. Nothing more, nothing less.

[/quote]

This doesn't include all leavened bread. Didn't we (not you necessarily) just have a dispute over Wonderbread on another thread as to whether it's valid or not? If there is a doubt as to its validity, there's a problem.


#35

I have stated at an earlier post that the ingredients are to be wheat and water.

Do I have to be specific every time?


#36

I think we owe it to the OP to keep the thread on topic, no? :wink:


#37

[quote="surfinpure, post:36, topic:208456"]
I think we owe it to the OP to keep the thread on topic, no? ;)

[/quote]

I think that falls in line with the OP's question.

1st question, is the bread of valid matter? Being made of wheat and water only? If not, then its probably invalid matter.

2nd question, is it leavened or unleavened? If its valid matter, its a valid Sacrament nonetheless. But if its leavened, then its a grave abuse and a grave sin for the priest to use leavened bread in a Latin Rite Mass. But that does in no way invalidate the Sacrament.


#38

It is made with only wheat and water. And what does unleavened mean as opposed to leavened?

And I don’t agree that we are obligated, under pain of sin, to report abuses going on in our parishes.


#39

[quote="pcg2, post:38, topic:208456"]
It is made with only wheat and water. And what does unleavened mean as opposed to leavened?

And I don't agree that we are obligated, under pain of sin, to report abuses going on in our parishes.

[/quote]

Leavened bread is made to rise either with yeast or with a chemical leavener like baking powder. As ConstantineTG explained, in the Roman Rite leavened bread is not permitted, but would still be valid matter if used in contravention of the rules. (Please take 10 seconds to at least Google this before quoting canon law that you don't understand in giant red letters, thanks. I've had to explain it like three times in the last week. ;))

Some people make the mistake of thinking that unless bread is really flat -- like wafer flat, or matzo flat -- it must have been leavened. This is not true, and unleavened bread, particularly if made with whole-wheat flour or the like (which is perfectly licit) can seem disarmingly "breadlike."


#40

[quote="pcg2, post:38, topic:208456"]
It is made with only wheat and water. And what does unleavened mean as opposed to leavened?

[/quote]

Leavened means it has an agent that causes it to rise: ie baking soda or yeast If it is only flour (some baking flours have baking soda in them), then it would be licit matter, however, the crumbliness of the bread is gravely problematic.

And I don't agree that we are obligated, under pain of sin, to report abuses going on in our parishes.

(RS) Would seem to imply a moral obligation.


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