Eucharist


#1

A Baptist friend of mine asked me an interesting question yesterday that I wasn’t quite sure how to answer. She asked me: If the Holy Spirit lives within us, why do we worship the Eucharist? He is in us already…why would we care if he is also in the tabernacle? Isn’t the holy spirit within us much closer to our being in every way than the host? I wasn’t sure how to answer. What say you?


#2

Because the Eucharist is no longer bread and wine. It become Jesus Christ. The Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. Since Jesus is God. Since Jesus is God we worship him.

He is in us already…why would we care if he is also in the tabernacle? Isn’t the holy spirit within us much closer to our being in every way than the host? I wasn’t sure how to answer. What say you?

The Holy Spirit is indeed within us. He assist us by living a holy life. Paul said we are the temple of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not in Tabernacle. Jesus is in the Tabernacle. The Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the Trinity. Jesus is the Second Person. They are both God, but different persons.

How are they different?

Jesus Christ is both God and Man. The Word made flesh. Jesus has a Body.

The Holy Spirit is Pure Spirit. The Lord the Giver of Life. He has no body.


#3

Your friend asks good questions, IMV.

God is no less in us than in any Catholic tabernacle. To think there is “more” of God in the Catholic Eucharist than present within is making a serious error.

Actually, that is the only Real Presence mentioned in the Scriptures at all.


#4

It isn’t error. The Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ is truly present in the form of Bread or Unleaven Bread. It is no longer bread but Jesus Christ himself.

So the Tabernacle is indeed the dwelling place of God. That is the Catholic understanding and this belief has been the belief of the Early Church and the Apostles themselves for over 2,000 yrs.


#5

[quote=boppaid]He is in us already…why would we care if he is also in the tabernacle?
[/quote]

It’s not Holy Spirit, it’s Jesus Christ.

Next time he asks this question ask him this:

“If Jesus (or even Holy Spirit in some form) would suddenly appear in front of you, would you turn around and walk away, saying: whatever, the Holy Spirit already dwells withing me?”

[quote=Atemi]Actually, that is the only Real Presence mentioned in the Scriptures at all.
[/quote]

Sure, because Jesus was a big prankster when he tells everybody that the bread and wine they see is Him.

God is no less in us than in any Catholic tabernacle. To think there is “more” of God in the Catholic Eucharist than present within is making a serious error.

This I ask you the very same question I said above. If Jesus stood before you would you not care because Holy Spirit within you counts for more than Jesus 3 meters away? :shrug:


#6

The reasoning in the question can be used to ask:

Why go to church or pray to God since the Holy Spirit is in us as Christains? Why not pray to ourselves? Why not worship ourselves?

I am sure your friend that is a Baptist would see the flaw in that reasoning. The same flaw is indicated in the originl question.


#7

True. Just as I have answered.


#8

God is everywhere.

Therefore God is in Mecca.

Would your Baptist friend bow to Mecca?

Actually in Orthodox Tradition, when you take Holy Communion you become a Tabernacle and a Chalice (the idea of the whole thing), so you don’t spit, cut your hair etc. for a period of time because that would be like cracking a leak in the Chalice, dropping crumbs of the Eucharist, etc.

The person above who denied the Real Presence obviously hasn’t read St. Paul’s thoughts on this matter in Corinthians.


#9

Does that mean I can bow down and worship your friend for God is in him? :smiley:


#10

That was their point! In fact, they asked me that.


#11

We can bow down someone to pay respect, it doesn’t mean we worship them.

If you go to Korea, people nod their heads to each other when they say hi. They are not worshipping each other; that is their way of showing respect.

when we go inside a Catholic church, we show our respect as well. It does not mean we worship the statues.

For the Eucharist - we worship for It is Jesus.

For you, I don’t worship you even if Jesus is in you.


#12

We do not worship “places” where God resides (idolatry) but God himself…

But I don’t understant what point they were trying to make.


#13

I think the what they were comparing was that Christ is in us, and Christ is in the tabernacle. But we bow before the tabernacle and not before each other. It was sort of said ‘tongue & cheek’ but I thought it was funny that someone brought that up on this thread. :slight_smile:


#14

Well, in the tubernacle Christ is present materially so we bow to him. But then God is present everywhere and we still don’t bow to every place (as was already mentioned, we don’t bow to Mecca). As I said, if Christ appeared in front of us we woudn’t ignore it because God is present everywhere.


#15

Can you provide a chapter and verse on that belief? I don’t care if men have taught it, I want at least two witnesses in the Scriptures.


#16

I can give you three accounts in the Bible I also can cite more verses if it pleases you. In this case I will show from Scripture and an additional writing from the Early Apostolic Fathers.

John 6:25-65.

25 When they found him on the other side of the sea, they said to him, “Rabbi, when did you come here?” 26 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves. 27* Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of man will give to you; for on him has God the Father set his seal.” 28 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29* Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” 30* So they said to him, “Then what sign do you do, that we may see, and believe you? What work do you perform? 31* Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’” 32 Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven; my Father gives you the true bread from heaven.p 33 For the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven, and gives life to the world.” 34* They said to him, “Lord, give us this bread always.”

35* Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to me shall not hunger, and he who believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37* All that the Father gives me will come to me; and him who comes to me I will not cast out. 38* For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; 39* and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. 40* For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44* No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45* It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Every one who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me. 46* Not that any one has seen the Father except him who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

52* The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56* He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. 58* This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever.” 59* This he said in the synagogue, as he taught at Caperna-um.

60 Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” 61* But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at it, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? 62* Then what if you were to see the Son of man ascending where he was before? 63* It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64* But there are some of you that do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that would betray him. 65* And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

((continue))


#17

1 Cor 11:1-34.

Be* imitators of me, as I am of Christ.

2* I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you. 3* But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Any man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, 5* but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled dishonors her head–it is the same as if her head were shaven. 6 For if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her wear a veil. 7* For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8* (For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. 9* Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.) 10 That is why a woman ought to have a veil * on her head, because of the angels. 11 (Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man nor man of woman; 12* for as woman was made from man, so man is now born of woman. And all things are from God.) 13 Judge for yourselves; is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not nature itself teach you that for a man to wear long hair is degrading to him, 15 but if a woman has long hair, it is her pride? For her hair is given to her for a covering. 16* If any one is disposed to be contentious, we recognize no other practice, nor do the churches of God.

17 But in the following instructions I do not commend you, because when you come together it is not for the better but for the worse. 18* For, in the first place, when you assemble as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you; and I partly believe it, 19 for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized. 20 When you meet together, it is not the Lord’s supper that you eat. 21 For in eating, each one goes ahead with his own meal, and one is hungry and another is drunk. 22 What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I commend you in this? No, I will not.

23* * For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for * you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 25* In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, *“This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. **

27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. 30 That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died. * 31 But if we judged ourselves truly, we should not be judged. 32* But when we are judged by the Lord, we are chastened * so that we may not be condemned along with the world.

33 So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another-- 34* if any one is hungry, let him eat at home–lest you come together to be condemned. About the other things I will give directions when I come.


#18

In addition to what I have show in Scripture here is short Scripture verse showing Jesus instituted the Eucharist.

Matt. 26:26-28; Mark. 14:22,24; Luke 22;19-20; 1 Cor. 11:24-25 - Jesus says, this IS my body and blood. Jesus does not say, this is a symbol of my body and blood.

Matt. 26:26; Mark. 14:22; Luke 22:19-20 - the Greek phrase is “Touto estin to soma mou.” This phraseology means “this is actually” or “this is really” my body and blood.

1 Cor. 11:24 - the same translation is used by Paul - “touto mou estin to soma.” The statement is “this is really” my body and blood. Nowhere in Scripture does God ever declare something without making it so.

Matt. 26:26; Mark. 14:22; Luke 22:19 - to deny the 2,000 year-old Catholic understanding of the Eucharist, Protestants must argue that Jesus was really saying “this represents (not is) my body and blood.” However, Aramaic, the language that Jesus spoke, had over 30 words for “represent,” but Jesus did not use any of them. He used the Aramaic word for “estin” which means “is.”

Matt. 26:28; Mark. 14:24; Luke 22:20 - Jesus’ use of “poured out” in reference to His blood also emphasizes the reality of its presence.


#19

“They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110).

“For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.” Justin Martyr, First Apology, 66 (c. A.D. 110-165).

“[T]he bread over which thanks have been given is the body of their Lord, and the cup His blood…” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, IV:18,4 (c. A.D. 200).

Source: scripturecatholic.com/the_eucharist.html#tradition-I


#20

I can give you at least one. The Gospel of John, Chapter 6. Pay close attention to two things:

  1. Many people left Jesus’ teaching because they didnt understand and Jesus called reference to this.

  2. Jesus never clarified whether or not he was speaking in a symbolistic way about his body and his blood. He always clarified in the past if he was speaking in a symblositic way, but he did not in John’s gospel, chapter 6.


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