One of the priests in my church always tells people at mass to pray together with him: “Through him, with him, in him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, all glory and honor is yours, almighty Father, forever and ever.” I heard that this is not right, the prayer is supposed to be said by the priest alone, how can I tell the priest that he is not right?
Why would lay people be excluded from saying a prayer for submission to Christ and unity in the Church? It only seems fitting that all persons would join in such a prayer, particularly in the communion of saints.
You’re not the liturgy police. The appropriate person to tell him is his pastor. If he is the pastor, the appropriate person is his bishop.
For reference, from the General Instructions for the Roman Missal (GIRM):
"151. After the Consecration when the Priest has said, The mystery of faith, the people pronounce the acclamation, using one of the prescribed formulas.
At the end of the Eucharistic Prayer, the Priest takes the paten with the host and the chalice and elevates them both while pronouncing alone the doxology Through him. At the end the people acclaim, Amen. After this, the Priest places the paten and the chalice on the corporal.
152. After the Eucharistic Prayer is concluded, the Priest, with hands joined, says alone the introduction to the Lord’s Prayer, and then with hands extended, he pronounces the prayer together with the people.
Well, you are right.
Roman Missal, 98
he is the priest.
If it was meant for the people to say, it would say ‘the people acclaim’, as it does later.
Because it’s reserved to the priest celebrant (and any con-celebrants).
As you’ve stated it here, I don’t see anything wrong with it. You didn’t say that the priest said “say these words along with me”. There’s nothing wrong with praying together with the priest at any time during Mass. It doesn’t have to be out loud. It just shouldn’t be distracting to others.
Yep, I quietly whisper/mouth the responses as a part of my participation in the Mass. Follow the rubrix (sp?), follow the Mass, all is good!
Unless of course the priest presiding over the Eucharist decides to have the lay persons say it. In which case, good order is maintained and the worship now actively includes the entire body of believers. Wink right back at ya.
Umm… are we reading the same post?
Which would be a change in the Mass, which he is not authorized to make.
No… in fact, good order is hindered and the faithful are left wondering “what in the world is going on here?”
That’s not what “full and active participation” – as envisioned by the council fathers of Vatican II – actually means. I would encourage you to read up on the documents themselves.
So when the priest specifically says to the congregation to participate in reciting this portion of the mass, are you telling me they are incapable of following along? That’s interesting. It seems as if you have a very low opinion of the lay persons in the Church. The priest is asking them to do so for a catechetical purpose, it is odd that you would be opposed to such a thing, given that the purpose of the liturgy is both to engage in worship and to catechize those attending.
You can follow along, and I often do during the Eucharistic prayer, but I don’t recite it out loud. This goes along with the question of holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer or raising one’s hands, etc. The rubrics of the Church specifically reserve certain gestures and prayers to the priest. When the priest is saying a prayer aloud like the Eucharistic Prayer, you don’t say it also. Likewise, when the priest is praying and holding his up, you are not to do likewise. The orans posture, which the priest uses when he stands and prays with arms outstretched, is reserved for the priest. Is it expressly forbidden? No.
From Jimmy Akin:
Standing means standing without doing anything fancy with your arms. It is distinct, for example, from the orans posture, which the priest uses when he stands and prays with arms outstretched. It is also distinct from the hand-holding posture.
The latter is not expressly forbidden in liturgical law because it is one of those “Please don’t eat the daisies” situations. The legislator (the pope) did not envision that anybody would try to alter the standing posture in this way. As a result, the practice is not expressly forbidden, the same way that standing on one foot and hopping up and down as an effort to get closer to God in heaven is not expressly forbidden.
In general what liturgical documents do is to say what people should be doing and not focus on what they should not be doing (though there are exceptions). To prevent “Please don’t eat the daisies” situations, what the law does is prohibit things that aren’t mentioned in the liturgical books. Here’s the basic rule:
Can. 846 §1. In celebrating the sacraments the liturgical books approved by competent authority are to be observed faithfully; accordingly, no one is to add, omit, or alter anything in them on one’s own authority.
Changing from standing to hand holding during the Lord’s Prayer would be an alteration or addition of something provided for in the liturgical books and thus would be at variance with the law.
Incapable? No, of course not.
Is it a request that’s permitted in the rubrics of the Mass? No.
I would recommend that they just refrain from praying a prayer that’s meant to be prayed by the priest(s) alone.
Why would you say I have a “low opinion” of lay people? Because I think they should do what the Church expects them to do, at Mass?
What leads you to that conclusion?
- First, the purpose of the Mass isn’t explicitly catechetical, per se.
- Second, what’s catechetical about saying those words, as opposed to hearing the priest say them (as he’s supposed to do)?
Because I read the liturgy. https://discourse-cdn-sjc1.co
Considering that the section in discussion is extolling the unity in the church, having the priest ask the body of the Church to repeat with him in unison is a catechetical act in and of itself.
Why does this conversation remind me of Monte Python’s Life of Brian:
Brian: You are all individuals!
Group in Unison: Yes, we are all individuals!
Random Guy in the crowd: Well, I’m not.
The link you posted is non-functioning.
This still doesn’t change the fact that only the priest should say that part of the Mass, and by inviting the congregation to join him, he’s essentially saying 'I know better than the Church in her millennia of experience, and, as such, will change the divine Liturgy of the Mass as such.
And, again, as someone said earlier
Regardless of the intention, this is still wrong
Even priests who are sitting in choir (meaning priests who are not con-celebrating) are not supposed to pray that along with the celebrant.
There’s no web site at that address.
I think I’d recommend you do more reading on the liturgy. Perhaps from the documents of the Church, and not from web sites.
The prayer we’re talking about is absolutely not talking about “unity in the church”. It’s talking about the unity of the Trinity, and the glory and honor that proceeds from it!
I’m not catching how it’s self-evident. You’re gonna need to provide a bit more explanation, if you want to prove your point.
Because the assertion you’re making is comical, perhaps?
Write a letter to your pastor to complain (you can make it anonymous if you like).
If that doesn’t work, write a SIGNED letter to the bishop. Never send your bishop anonymous letters when reporting the actions of a priest.
Sorry the link didn’t work. Was trying to re-post the photo from above.