Evangelicals and the Church


#1

Years ago, I read a book about World War 2. In the book, it talked about some of the events that led to that war. There were a couple of paragraphs that talked about how Germany and the Lutheran church had become liberalized before 1900. Its seminaries, churches, and religious theology had all become corrupted by liberalism. Evangelicals in the Lutheran churches were mocked at and persecuted. How did those Evangelicals choose to deal with the situation? By immigrating, amass to the United States. They wanted to flee from persecution and live in a country that would respect their religious convictions.

The book went on to describe how because of that exodus an even greater moral gap occurred in German society. There was no longer anyone to challenge the prevailing liberalism and to promote moral absolutes. The liberal Protestantism that was left in Germany was then combined with conservative Catholic nationalism creating Nazism.

Today Protestants are abandoning their churches because of liberalism. I have to ask my fellow Protestants who have abandoned their faith. WHY? If those churches have rejected true doctrine and the salvation message, are you not under a moral obligation to God to stay in those churches? You are called to be a beacon of light to the lost. If, you cannot toughen it out in a liberal church, than how in the world can you be the salt of the earth in this Godless, heathen society? How many times do I have to repeat myself on this forum and say to you that the overwhelming numbers of Protestants in those churches are on the broad road to hell and they need you. The fact that they are even attending those churches shows that they are still looking for some type of truth. Did the Apostle Paul abandon the church when there was disagreement? No.

People leave the Protestant church for many reasons. I remember years ago that there was a group of women who were feminists in the Methodist church and that they left the church to become Catholic because they liked the fact that Catholics’ place Mary on such a high level. They wanted a female component to God. What a great liberal reason to leave our churches.


#2

You remember reading a book but can you give us the name and author?


#3

[quote=Alfie]Years ago, I read a book about World War 2. In the book, it talked about some of the events that led to that war. There were a couple of paragraphs that talked about how Germany and the Lutheran church had become liberalized before 1900. Its seminaries, churches, and religious theology had all become corrupted by liberalism. Evangelicals in the Lutheran churches were mocked at and persecuted. How did those Evangelicals choose to deal with the situation? By immigrating, amass to the United States. They wanted to flee from persecution and live in a country that would respect their religious convictions.

The book went on to describe how because of that exodus an even greater moral gap occurred in German society. There was no longer anyone to challenge the prevailing liberalism and to promote moral absolutes. The liberal Protestantism that was left in Germany was then combined with conservative Catholic nationalism creating Nazism.

Today Protestants are abandoning their churches because of liberalism. I have to ask my fellow Protestants who have abandoned their faith. WHY? If those churches have rejected true doctrine and the salvation message, are you not under a moral obligation to God to stay in those churches? You are called to be a beacon of light to the lost. If, you cannot toughen it out in a liberal church, than how in the world can you be the salt of the earth in this Godless, heathen society? How many times do I have to repeat myself on this forum and say to you that the overwhelming numbers of Protestants in those churches are on the broad road to hell and they need you. The fact that they are even attending those churches shows that they are still looking for some type of truth. Did the Apostle Paul abandon the church when there was disagreement? No.

People leave the Protestant church for many reasons. I remember years ago that there was a group of women who were feminists in the Methodist church and that they left the church to become Catholic because they liked the fact that Catholics’ place Mary on such a high level. They wanted a female component to God. What a great liberal reason to leave our churches.
[/quote]

I’m not going to even speculate on what if any role “liberal Lutheranism” may have had on Naziism except to say that there are many noble examples of Lutheran martyrs against the Nazis.

But regarding your comment about Catholics role, Bavaria (home area of Pope Benedict) is where Catholics are in greatest density and it was where Naziism was most opposed. This book is at least slanderous in one regard so I’d discount everything it says as how can you determine what is true?


#4

And why are you asking your fellow Protestants to explain to you their denominational preferences on a Catholic site? :hmmm:

And what documentation do you have to back up your assaults on Catholicism?


#5

I was a Protestant who left my church to become Catholic. I did so because God, through the power of the Holy Spirit made me realize that the Catholic Church was correct regarding the Eucharist, the path of salvation, confession and the authority of the Catholic Church. Why would I want to stay in a church that teaches things that aren’t true? Why would I want my children to learn things that aren’t true?

Could I have made a difference had a stayed in my Protestant Church??? Been a beacon of light as you suggested? I doubt it. I think that if I raised my hand during every Sunday School class and said, “You know, the Catholic Church is the One True Church and we are WAY off base in our beliefs” I do believe I would’ve been shown the door. So I left - and I told everyone who asked why… and I will continue to tell everyone who will listen how much I LOVE being Catholic.

Blessings,
CM

p.s. I LOVE being Catholic! :slight_smile:


#6

[quote=Orionthehunter]I’m not going to even speculate on what if any role “liberal Lutheranism” may have had on Naziism except to say that there are many noble examples of Lutheran martyrs against the Nazis.

But regarding your comment about Catholics role, Bavaria (home area of Pope Benedict) is where Catholics are in greatest density and it was where Naziism was most opposed. This book is at least slanderous in one regard so I’d discount everything it says as how can you determine what is true?
[/quote]

I am sick of hearing how noble the Catholic church was during WW2. How did two thirds of the Jews get murdered on the continent when Catholism was the dominate faith in Europe? After the war Nazi war criminals were smuggled out of Europe through the Odessa network with the help of your church. Hitler received more votes from Catholic Southern Germany than liberal Protestant strongholds like Berlin. He only got 2% of the vote in Berlin and its vacinities. Hilter only won one third of the entire German vote and most of those votes came from conservative Catholics who supported him because he was Catholic and not liberal Protestants.


#7

[quote=Alfie]I am sick of hearing how noble the Catholic church was during WW2. How did two thirds of the Jews get murdered on the continent when Catholism was the dominate faith in Europe? After the war Nazi war criminals were smuggled out of Europe through the Odessa network with the help of your church. Hitler received more votes from Catholic Southern Germany than liberal Protestant strongholds like Berlin. He only got 2% of the vote in Berlin and its vacinities. Hilter only won one third of the entire German vote and most of those votes came from conservative Catholics who supported him because he was Catholic and not liberal Protestants.
[/quote]

The Catholic Church did what they could to protect the Jews, but they couldn’t save all of them. Remember that the Vatican is located in Rome, which was the capital of Fascist Italy, an ally of Nazi Germany.

There was also the fact that the Nazis had a military and the Vatican didn’t, so it’s not like they could engage Germany in a military battle to save the Jews.


#8

[quote=carol marie]I was a Protestant who left my church to become Catholic. I did so because God, through the power of the Holy Spirit made me realize that the Catholic Church was correct regarding the Eucharist, the path of salvation, confession and the authority of the Catholic Church. Why would I want to stay in a church that teaches things that aren’t true? Why would I want my children to learn things that aren’t true?

Could I have made a difference had a stayed in my Protestant Church??? Been a beacon of light as you suggested? I doubt it. I think that if I raised my hand during every Sunday School class and said, “You know, the Catholic Church is the One True Church and we are WAY off base in our beliefs” I do believe I would’ve been shown the door. So I left - and I told everyone who asked why… and I will continue to tell everyone who will listen how much I LOVE being Catholic.

Blessings,
CM

p.s. I LOVE being Catholic! :slight_smile:
[/quote]

Were you an Evangelical Christian? If so when were you saved? What is your testimony?


#9

Why are you sick of hearing how noble the Church was during WWII? Why does that bother you so much? It doesn’t fit with your agenda to demonize the Church?

Pope Pius XII was responsible for thousands of Jews being saved during WWII, more than any other single human being.

New York Times on December 25th, 1941: “The voice of Pius XII is a lonely voice in the silence and darkness enveloping Europe this Christmas. … He is about the only ruler left on the continent of Europe who dares to raise his voice at all.”

www.buchanan.org/pa-98-0401.html

3 million Polish Catholics died in concentration camps.

Hitler was not “Catholic”. No one who is a Nazi can be “Catholic” or any other type of “Christian”. Nazism and Christianity are mutually exclusive.

www.ewtn.com/library/answers/piusjews.htm


#10

[quote=Alfie]Were you an Evangelical Christian? If so when were you saved? What is your testimony?
[/quote]

Before we get into “testimonies”, can you go with your original post and please share the name and author of the book you claims indicts the Church and mass emigration of Evangelicals to America as a reason for the rise of Nazism in Germany?


#11

[quote=carol marie]I was a Protestant who left my church to become Catholic. I did so because God, through the power of the Holy Spirit made me realize that the Catholic Church was correct regarding the Eucharist, the path of salvation, confession and the authority of the Catholic Church. Why would I want to stay in a church that teaches things that aren’t true? Why would I want my children to learn things that aren’t true?

Could I have made a difference had a stayed in my Protestant Church??? Been a beacon of light as you suggested? I doubt it. I think that if I raised my hand during every Sunday School class and said, “You know, the Catholic Church is the One True Church and we are WAY off base in our beliefs” I do believe I would’ve been shown the door. So I left - and I told everyone who asked why… and I will continue to tell everyone who will listen how much I LOVE being Catholic.

Blessings,
CM

p.s. I LOVE being Catholic! :slight_smile:
[/quote]

You just made the comment about how you love being a Catholic. How about love being a Christian? I was jumped by Church Militant on another thread for commenting on how Catholics refer to themselves as being Catholic rather than Christian. I rest my case, CM.


#12

[quote=Alfie]You just made the comment about how you love being a Catholic. How about love being a Christian? I was jumped by Church Militant on another thread for commenting on how Catholics refer to themselves as being Catholic rather than Christian. I rest my case, CM.
[/quote]

Catholic are the first Christians and we distinguish ourselves from Protestants by identifying ourselves as members of His universal (Greek - katholikos - “universal”) Church by calling ourselves “Catholics”.

The book title and author referred to in the first post is still not forthcoming. :whistle:


#13

Alfie, you need to read more books first. And also, this is a Catholic Forum. Your cattlecall to all protestants sounds a bit in vein. I don’t think you are going to get much response to your actual question.


#14

[quote=Eden]Why are you sick of hearing how noble the Church was during WWII? Why does that bother you so much? It doesn’t fit with your agenda to demonize the Church?

Pope Pius XII was responsible for thousands of Jews being saved during WWII, more than any other single human being.

New York Times on December 25th, 1941: “The voice of Pius XII is a lonely voice in the silence and darkness enveloping Europe this Christmas. … He is about the only ruler left on the continent of Europe who dares to raise his voice at all.”

www.buchanan.org/pa-98-0401.html

3 million Polish Catholics died in concentration camps.

Hitler was not “Catholic”. No one who is a Nazi can be “Catholic” or any other type of “Christian”. Nazism and Christianity are mutually exclusive.

www.ewtn.com/library/answers/piusjews.htm

[/quote]

The Borgia popes were Catholic. They killed people.


#15

[quote=Alfie]The Borgia popes were Catholic. They killed people.
[/quote]

How about Protestant Puritans? They killed around 20 people during the witchhunts of the 1690’s.

Please don’t get into the “this religion is better or worse because of the number of people killed” argument.


#16

[quote=Alfie]The Borgia popes were Catholic. They killed people.
[/quote]

Are you going to keep on track with your original premise about how Catholicism is the cause of the rise of Nazism?

You are just jumping from here to there without any connections.

I think you owe all of us the name of the book and the author which you reference in your first post. We’ve hardly even begun to discuss your original accusations, let alone new ones.


#17

[quote=LRThunder]How about Protestant Puritans? They killed around 20 people during the witchhunts of the 1690’s.

[/quote]

I assume that they are burning in hell.


#18

If you can’t give us the name and author of the book used as the basis for this thread, I have to conclude you made the whole thing up.


#19

[quote=Eden]If you can’t give us the name and author of the book used as the basis for this thread, I have to conclude you made the whole thing up.
[/quote]

I do not remember the name of the book. I have read a number of books on WW2, but that was years ago. More than likely I read it in a Christian magazine. Probably one that is similar to Billy Grahams magazine where I read about how people in South America were becoming Evangelicals because of the alcohol problem there.


#20

[quote=Alfie]I do not remember the name of the book. I have read a number of books on WW2, but that was years ago. More than likely I read it in a Christian magazine. Probably one that is similar to Billy Grahams magazine where I read about how people in South America were becoming Evangelicals because of the alcohol problem there.
[/quote]

That is not a very scholarly answer. You accuse Catholicism of being the impetus for the rise of Nazism and can’t supply the book and you reference vague magazine articles to discuss conversions. I am sure this kind of evidence is worthwhile for you but to me it’s just hearsay.

Don’t you think if you are going to use a book as a premise for a whole thread topic, you should at least remember what the book is?

http://bestsmileys.com/talking/1.gif

Surely if you are going to attack the Church, you can do better than this.


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