Evangelicals just came a-knockin'!


#1

Wow, that was an interesting evening. A husband and wife pair of Evangelicals just came knockin’ at my door to discuss assurance of salvation. We had a really good discussion, and my little apologetics cheat sheet sure came in handy.

They said something I’d never heard of before though - this idea that we can be always assured of salvation (old news) and that the only real chore after that was to build up treasures for ourself in Heaven (a somewhat novel idea). In other words, you can’t lose your salvation, but you might not get anything when you’re there. I’m sure someone has heard of this before.

Any suggestions for some reading for me? Thanks in advance!

As a sidenote - I was only home this evening because my back has been bothering me, otherwise I would have been out of the house at a study group. The Holy Spirit at work? :stuck_out_tongue:


#2

That. I think, with some prodding to them would end up sounding incredibly like a works-based salvation concept. weird :s


#3

[quote=Sandtigress] the only real chore after that was to build up treasures for ourself in Heaven (a somewhat novel idea). In other words, you can’t lose your salvation, but you might not get anything when you’re there.
[/quote]

Sounds like a selfish version of the treasury of merit.


#4

Any suggestions on what to say next time? This was one I hadn’t heard before. They’ve got my email address, so I’m sure I’ll get an email someday soon.


#5

You could always ask… I’ve lost what I was going to say. At least the first part of it, if it comes back I’ll be sure to post it.

Anyhow (This is the second half of what I was going to post), you could ask what kind of treasures. When one arrives in Heaven they won’t need or want anything. They would have everything; God.


#6

Were they discussing the idea of “crowns” in heaven? I’ve heard several evangelicals discuss the idea that the crowns mentioned in heaven will be given for what you do, and that while there are no tears in heaven, at the judgement there might be - even for those who are saved and going to heaven - because they will realize what they could have had…

thats what it sort of sounds like they might be talking about… Its a topic that rarely came up in the protestant churches I grew up in - but I heard it from several - so it’s certainly an idea that is out there…


#7

Believe it or not, my wife said she learned the same thing in her Baptist sect 30 years age. The number of rooms in your mansion in heaven is based on the treasures you earn here on earth is old news. It just happens to be a minor story not many of us hear often.

JMJ


#8

I was taught that I was saved but that my rewards in Heaven would depend on how good I was here on earth. The more good I did and the more I followed Jesus the bigger my reward (or rooms of my mansion). This sort of scared me. I was always worried that I might end up with a two room shack! :smiley:

Tamie Walcott


#9

I sort of posed the question to them - what in the world could we want in Heaven when we have perfect happiness just being with God? I know that we can build up treasures in heaven, but I don’t see why it would be important when we’re there. I don’t think they really answered it, but then, I wasn’t sure about it either. :stuck_out_tongue:


#10

[quote=Sandtigress]Wow, that was an interesting evening. A husband and wife pair of Evangelicals just came knockin’ at my door to discuss assurance of salvation. We had a really good discussion, and my little apologetics cheat sheet sure came in handy.

They said something I’d never heard of before though - this idea that we can be always assured of salvation (old news) and that the only real chore after that was to build up treasures for ourself in Heaven (a somewhat novel idea). In other words, you can’t lose your salvation, but you might not get anything when you’re there. I’m sure someone has heard of this before.

Any suggestions for some reading for me? Thanks in advance!

As a sidenote - I was only home this evening because my back has been bothering me, otherwise I would have been out of the house at a study group. The Holy Spirit at work? :stuck_out_tongue:
[/quote]

They forgot the part in the Book of Revelation where they will be casting down their crowns (the treasures they built up for themselves in Heaven) before the One who suffered, died and rose triumphantly to save them. It sounds to me that they are influenced by the health-wealth, gimme, gimme, gimme Gospel. Another influence is the Protestant work ethic, which has merit, but taken to the extreme results in the maxim: Those who work hard will succeed. Reality demonstrates to us constant examples where this is not the case, for one reason or another.

I don’t believe we can save ourselves. I believe Jesus is our perfect sacrifice and that nothing we can do can add to what God has done for us in sending His Son to die for our transgressions, and to promise eternal life to us by rising from the dead. I don’t agree with them that good works are about storing up treasures for ourselves. Good works are the fruits of a life that has been transformed and renewed by a living Lord. They are a participation in the work of God in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself.


#11

[quote=Tibbar].
I don’t believe we can save ourselves. I believe Jesus is our perfect sacrifice and that nothing we can do can add to what God has done for us in sending His Son to die for our transgressions, and to promise eternal life to us by rising from the dead. I don’t agree with them that good works are about storing up treasures for ourselves. Good works are the fruits of a life that has been transformed and renewed by a living Lord. They are a participation in the work of God in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself.
[/quote]

Well, they believed in this too (as do I). It was only when I brought up Scripture that could be interpreted as one possibly losing one’s salvation that they mentioned this idea of losing treasures, not salvation. Just an idea I had never heard of before.


#12

My wife is a Baptist, and I have heard quite a bit about this in our old Sunday school class…

More or less, the teaching starts with this:

For we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. (Eph 2:10, NASB)

Because this mandates works, and we know that works can’t play a role in our salvation (…we do know that, right?), the works have to do something. Next, the teaching proceeds to this:
*
"But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal; *(Matthew 6:20, NASB)
*
and

knowing that whatever good thing each one does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether slave or free.* (Eph 6:8, NASB)

and all of these:

1 Corinthians 9:25
And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown.
Philippians 4:1
Therefore, my beloved and longed-for brethren, my joy and crown, so stand fast in the Lord, beloved.
1 Thessalonians 2:19
For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Is it not even you in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at His coming?
James 1:12
Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the **crown of life **which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.
1 Peter 5:4
and when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that does not fade away.
2 Timothy 4:8
Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.

Once they receive the crowns, however, there is some dispute as to whether or not they will keep them based on the following:

Revelation 4:10
the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne

Basically, some of them (not necessarily all) say that God will give them to us, and in an as an act of humble and dutiful worship we will give them back to Him.

They all insist that it is neither selfish nor a works-including salvation system. If you try and go that route with them it will categorically fail. In my view, this is simply a means to reconcile all of the scripture passages that say we will be judged for our works while still having a system that is “faith alone”.

I think that sums up the position.

God Bless,
RyanL


#13

Interesting, thanks!

Does anyone know any verses that might be used in answer to this theory?


#14

DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.