Evangelicals Will Be Extinct Within Ten Years Round 2

We apparently exceeded our limit in postings. There was some good dialog/debate at times a little heated but I don’t think it was ready to end yet. I had a post that I was realy looking to see it there was a refutation for. so Here is the post again. please feel free to pick up where it was left off.

Yesterday, 11:00 pm
workingman
New Member Join Date: March 1, 2009
Location: MN
Posts: 138
Religion: Catholic Candidate (former LCMS)

Re: Evangelicals Will Be Extinct Within Ten Years


So you say salvation = belief + nothing. Have you looked at St. Matthew 7:15-20; "Beware of false prophets, who com to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenouse wolves. YOu will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? In the same way, every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree can not bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will know them by their fruits."
Taken from the NRSV direct quote. The fruit is obviously our good works and the tree represents a person. If you do not produce good works how could one be saved from the fires of hell. Salvation and good works go hand in hand.


God bless all.
Your slave in Christ

my blog: workingmansthoughts.blogspot.com/

How about we call the thread something else? Like “Belief plus nothing?”

Alwaysgr8ful redefines the “works” being described here in terms of John 6, where Jesus tells his hearers that believing on Him is the work God is calling them to do. Never mind her denunciations of out-of-context prooftexts elsewhere (this only means “out of the context of her tradition that she won’t admit to having”). She starts out with the determination that salvation shall result from “belief plus nothing,” and she subjects Scripture to whatever interpretations will give her that result. It’s a foolproof method.

Edwin

Also this post. Just because the 7 books were removed by protestants does not mean they are not valid. Who gave the protestants the athority to remove them other than the fact it truly runes the OSAS message.

Yesterday, 8:36 pm
workingman
New Member Join Date: March 1, 2009
Location: MN
Posts: 139
Religion: Catholic Candidate (former LCMS)

Re: Evangelicals Will Be Extinct Within Ten Years


It is so not belief plus nothing. Hebrews 6:10 For God is not unjust;hewill not overlook your work and the love that you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you wtill do.

In this verse from Hebrews God clearly showes he will reward our works on earth and in heaven.

Also see Sirach 16:12-14; Great as his mercy, so also is his chatisement; he judges a person according to one’s deeds. The sinner will not escape with plunder, and the patince of the godly will not be frustrated. He makes room for every act of mercy; everyone recieves in accordance with one’s deeds.

The verses from Sirach cleary state we will be juged by our deeds and will also recieve accordingly to our deeds.


God bless all.
Your slave in Christ

my blog: workingmansthoughts.blogspot.com/

I agree! Wokingman, would you start the thread over (or change the title if you can) using the title “Belief Plus Nothing ?”

Your post is a good one to start the thread off, but the title is so misleading.
Looking forward to the continued civil debate.

agreed.

Edwin, be sure to copy this post over to the new thread. :thankyou:

I already see a problem, If you don’t say Salvation = Belief plus nothing, I’m left constantly having to define what we are talking about. Probably too late to catch you…

Had to rehash this post:

Did it ever occur to you that there are two kinds of works being defined, one of which, is the works of the Mosaic laws to which some of your quotes refer to and the other being the works or good deeds that pertain to our faith working in love. Let me give you an example of this:

Ephesians 2 8-10

“It is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and sealed us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works , so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship created in Christ Jesus to do good works which God prepared in advance for us to do.”

The next line after this is:

"Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth, and called “uncircum cised” by those who call themselves the “circumcision” . . . remember that at that time you were separate from Christ excluded from citizenship in Israel . . . etc.

The works to which Paul states “not by works” means the works of the Mosaic law, he is exhorting his readers that the Judaizers amongst them are wrong in stating that the Gentiles need to be circumcized in order to be part of the new covenant. The latter works refers only to the good deeds or works which is necessary to living out our faith,

In fact, faith with works (acts of love) is so important to Paul, James, and the others that to deny this is to deny the truth:

“For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumsion has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing (i.e., working) itself through love.” Galatians 5:6

Paul goes on further to say:

". . . rather serve one another in love. The entire law is summed up in a single command: “love your neighbor as yourself.”

Is this not what James was advocating in scripture when he said we should look after the orphans and the widows (our faith working in love):

“You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless. . . You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith (faith is defined here has a belief in Christ as Saviour only) alone.”

Also, Romans 2: 6-7

“God will give to each person according to what he has done. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor, immortality, he will give eternal life.”

continued:

“For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law (summed up as “loving your neighbor as yourself” as Paul stated in Galatians) who will be declared righteous.”

Now, I would like for you to read 1 Corinthians 3: 1-3 with me:

" If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have no love, I am only a resounding gong or clanging cymbal. I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love (think of the Stoics), I gain nothing."

continued:

"And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Works of love are necessary to our faith (they justify us in the eyes of God), that is why in the Gospel of Matthew we have the story of “The Sheeps and Goats” and “The Tree and its Fruit” (Jesus’s own words spoken to the Apostles) to let us know that it takes more than a belief in Jesus as saviour to be saved.

"Not every one who says to me, "Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom (hmm, why’s that?) but only he who does the will of my Father (so our faith needs to be active, you say) who is in Heaven. Many will say say to me on that day, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles? Then, I will tell them plainly. I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!”

We are justified by faith (an unmerited gift of God’s grace) and works, i.e., works of love (which is the power of grace that moves us to cooperate with it).

To all who were on this thread from the word go and those who wish to join here is the new title in this section. Belif Plus Nothing Is It A Farce? and I’ll see if this lin will work.

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=332693

Josie! Happy Friday.

If there is anything that YOU do to gain salvation, or anything that you don’t do that can cause you to lose salvation, it doesn’t matter that there are two different kinds of works, right? Or am I not understanding your point of rehashing that post?

Faith without works (acts of love) is a dead faith, a dead faith, therefore, cannot save us.

An intellectual assent of God’s truth is not enough.

And Happy Friday to you too, always. How are you?

I’m good! Thanks for asking.

Ok, I really hate to do this but before Workingman’s thread starts getting posts, I REALLY want to change the title to the heart of the matter. A discussion/debate about something as important as our salvation needs to be labeled as to what we are talking about. Christians (non-Catholic Christians) believe that works are a part of walking out our faith, and this is going to be as confusing as the other thread (for me, anyway) when one person is talking about works in one context, and a Catholic is talking about works in another.

Workingman is signed off and I don’t want to step over him to start a new thread, so I’m going to go walk the dogs. :slight_smile:

this discussion has moved to salvation=belief+nothing is it a farce?

here is the link

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=332720

DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.