Even if Hell is a choice, what good reason to God allow?

Hello, I know that Hell is ultimately a choice, but i would like to ask even though why would God allow someone take a bad choice for eternity? Even if is a free-willing and impartial choice, even though wouldn’t it be better if God had not allowed it?

How could it be free will if God did not allow us to make certain choices? God desires that no one suffers hell. But we have free will. We can choose to freely love God. Or we can choose to reject Him.

Because heaven and hell are outside of time, they exist in a perpetual state of “now”. Therefore, the state we are in at the time of our death is our eternal state. One cannot “change his mind” in an eternal state of “now”. Change is something that can only occur with time. For example, Lucifer is as proud and deceitful as he was at the time of his fall because his choice against God was once in an eternity. And, of course, the angels who chose God will perpetually affirm their love of God.

If what you write is true, then it would seem that Purgatory must not be outside of time because souls enter it in an impure state and leave it in a purified state. That’s a change.

That’s an excellent way to explain it. :thumbsup: Also hell was made for the devil and his angels that’s why it’s such a horrible place, it wasn’t made for mankind. But when someone chooses to reject God they follow the devil, just like the fallen angels, there is no in between. To reject God means to follow the devil so those who follow the devil go where the devil goes. There is no in between, the only other place outside of God is the devil. Period. If you are not for God you are against Him. Period. There is no in between. God is not going to force someone to love Him. Even most of us humans don’t want to be with someone who doesn’t want to be with us, we don’t want to force someone to love us so neither does God. What good is being with someone who doesn’t want to be with you but they are only there because they have to be there? :shrug: God wants us to WANT to be with Him. :slight_smile:

But those in purgatory did choose God, they just needed some tweeking to them before they are ready to fully enter in. So their choice is still the same.

You don’t understand hell. The people in hell WANT to be there. They REJECTED God, and any place is better for them than heaven, where God is forced upon them.

Nobody is dragged, kicking and screaming, into hell, protesting that there must be some mistake. Those in hell CHOSE to be there, and that’s where they PREFER to be.

God could, if he wanted, drag those people kicking and screaming OUT of hell and forcibly place them in heaven. But God doesn’t work that way.

I exist in a “perpetual now” already. I’ve never been in the past and I never quite reach the future.

So, Hell must be an enjoyable place then, relatively speaking. No regrets.

Because He loves us and love must be freely given. He will force us to love Him, and will not force us to go to heaven. Of course God wants all his children to choose Him and to go to heaven, but many would rather be in hell. “I will not serve.”

It’s an interesting choice: Love me and do as I say or burn.

It’s the same kind of choice you get in a robbery: Give up your money or get shot. Both God and the robber control the outcomes of these scenarios. So why does God choose torture as an alternative to loving him? How about just letting people continue in this world?

Why does not loving God warrant pain? If someone you loved did not love you in return would you stab them?

It’s relative. People in hell do not WANT to be in the presence of God. Hell might not be enjoyable, but it’s better than the alternative (which would be far less enjoyable for them). They are in the place they prefer to be, no regrets.

Nobody in hell would wish to be in heaven. They CHOSE to be in hell.

God exists in past, present, and future and transcends all time. Every soul has been conceived of in the mind of God from eternity to eternity. There was never a point where a creature was not known by God. God will not change eternity by foregoing creating those who reject Him, because it would be allowing evil to triumph over good by manipulating the actions of God. The creature would be dictating the actions of the Creator. This is inconceivable. God’s conceived plan for every rational creature is the Beatific Vision. Hell is the deviation of God’s plan by his creation. It is a wasteland of eternal evil, swelling with incurable vice and barren of all graces. There is no happiness to be found in this, ever.

The answer is: FREEDOM.

Sure, God could’ve made you a robot, but then there is no heaven either…

It is better for one to have SUFFICIENT grace for Heaven and not choose it and go to hell because of one’s choice than to not exist in the first place.

Their SUFFICIENT grace for the possibility of Heaven glorifies God and His allowing them to exercise free choice also glorifies God–regardless of how they choose.

His giving them freedom of choice shows how much He loves them and His respecting of their choice–even if it is Hell shows how much He loves them because God is love and the scripture says that “Love does not demand its own way”.

The existence of Hell also glorifies God’s justice and glorifies the ones who choose Heaven–therefore it also glorifies God.

The Devil is behind the notion that God is somehow at fault for letting people choose hell–it is not God’s fault–He gives EVERYONE sufficient grace not to meet that end–it is the SINNER’S fault–it is the devil’s fault for tempting man to make such a choice!

Man is not gypped out of Heaven–He goes to hell by His free choice–God is not to blame–He would be blamed if he allowed LESS than free choice–that would make man NOT in his own image.

The devil uses the notion that god is somehow at fault–which is a lie–to therefore get people to believe in universalism–that everyone–even if they choose evil make it to heaven.

That is a lie–is heresy–and brings people to hell!

Whatever you do–don’t believe the universalists–they THINK that they mean well–by not believing the Catholic Church–they don’t mean well!

Universalism leads to Hell!

No. Whoever is in hell will be tormented by their regret because they will fully understand their purpose and how they perverted that purpose by their abuse of their freedom. They will hate God for creating them, and they will hate themselves.

They won’t even be any longer “themselves”, having rejected the source of their individuality they have instead identified themselves, or made themselves slaves to, whatever sin they loved more than God.

And, IMO, then you have the devils, who will be able to obscure their own self hatred by taking it out on humans, literally “feasting” on the condemn’s despair and horror and outraged individuality.

There is nothing that can be called real joy in hell.

On the face of it, that certainly makes sense. The truth of the matter is, we don’t have the vocabulary to be able to define the word “eternity.” A quick glance on the internet found it defined as “endless time”, “time without beginning or end” and “timeless state!”

Either of the first two definitions would allow for Purgatory to go on at the end of the world until those of us there had finished our “time” at which point we could join the rest of the Saints in Heaven.

“Timeless state” sounds pretty cold, frozen even, static…hmmm…sounds a lot like Hell! :cool:

Ive wondered this myself but as it turns out, God is Goodness itself. When someone rejects Goodness, they are left with everything else except good, and that is Hell.

Its not God inflicting suffering on those who rejected Him. Its more like an adulterer cheating on his wife and contracting HIV. The wife didnt inflict suffering on the cheating husband, his own actions led to it.

What is goodness in your mind? The god in the bible does some pretty bad things. I certainly wouldn’t call that god good.

But lets pretend that there is a good god. Is he omnipotent? Can he not come up with a scenario to save the ones who reject him from torment? Caring for those who hurt or reject you, that is true goodness.

Will there be real joy for you in heaven, knowing you’re loved ones will experience this?

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