Ever lasting punishment?


#1

i find it really hard to find the justice in burning some one for eternity, if some body is burning for 100 trillion years , wouldnt they forget why there even in hell? is it really fair to experience that much pain and suffering even after you have been rehabillitated and have been punished for what you have done on earth? i heard on a documetry that the banned book of “the apocalypse according to peter” when peter asks jesus how can those people suffer for so long , and jesus says “dont tell any one but they will one day be let out of hell”. is this true?


#2

[quote=melbourne_guy]i find it really hard to find the justice in burning some one for eternity, if some body is burning for 100 trillion years
[/quote]

You misunderstand a couple of things. There is no “time” in Hell (the term “100 trillion years” is meaningless). And the people in Hell DO NOT WANT to be in Heaven (they have rejected God).

I heard on a documetry that the banned book

There is no such thing as a “banned book.”

of “the apocalypse according to peter” when peter asks jesus how can those people suffer for so long , and jesus says “dont tell any one but they will one day be let out of hell”. is this true?

The “Apocalypse According to Peter.” (which Peter, of course, did not write) exists only in fragments. You may read it for yourself at this link. You won’t find the “passage” mentioned in the “documentary.”

Besides, if Jesus did tell Peter this, then Peter shouldn’t have written it down, now should he???


#3

[quote=melbourne_guy]i find it really hard to find the justice in burning some one for eternity, if some body is burning for 100 trillion years , wouldnt they forget why there even in hell?

[/quote]

They are reminded forever.

Well, that is the scary thing about eternity. Once you enter it with a particular decision, you can’t change it. Only during our life on earth can we change our mind. Once we face the end of our life - which for us is the end of time - we enter into eternity with the same disposition that we last had while alive.

We face God, Who will not coerce our free will at all, and the choices we made during life are used to determine whether we will be with God or not. We are so free, that nothing will change our projection into eternity. It is as if all our choices on earth determine our aim, and upon death, we are launched out into eternity according to whichever aim we last had. Thus, God’s judgment is Just, being based on our own choices.

Now, those who rejected God spend their eternity continuing in their evil. They are not sorry, nor can they be, because they can no longer change their mind, for the will has been placed in eternity and thus set forever. Secondly, they are punished for this evil, and the punishment lasts as long as they remain in their evil, which is continuously forever.

Those who desired God spend their eternity continuing in their desire and obedience. They can not change their mind anymore, they are set in this dispoistion for all eternity. And they are rewarded as long as they remain desiring God, which is continuously forever.

Indeed, eternity is both terrifying and awesome. Let us decide now to always remain in God’s friendship, that when our will is given to eternity, we may be able to handle it! Let us take God’s hand in ours as a child, and ask Him to help us in eternity, trusting that He knows all about it already, and how to survive and even thrive in that world.

hurst


#4

[quote=melbourne_guy]i find it really hard to find the justice in burning some one for eternity, if some body is burning for 100 trillion years , wouldnt they forget why there even in hell? is it really fair to experience that much pain and suffering even after you have been rehabillitated and have been punished for what you have done on earth? i ?
[/quote]

everyone burning in hell is there because of their free will choice, and would not leave even if given the opportunity, because they have made an irrevocable choice against God, against goodness, against his mercy and justice. Is it fair? yes it is fair because God is all good, and all just, and all merciful. they had equal access to both his judgement and mercy, and rejected it. God will not force himself upon those that do not ask for union with him. There are only two eternal choices, eternal union with God, the end for which we were all created and all predestined, or eternal separation from God. Either choice must be made with an entirely free will, with full knowledge (which we have when we die and confront God for judgement)

the fire of hell is not for rehabilitation – that is purgatory, and yes those who still desire union with God but understand they must be purified before enjoying that union, are in purgratory and will one day gain that blessed union.

If a sinner who merits hell asked in that moment of judgment to be restored to unity with God, he too would be given the opporunity to undergo that purification or “rehab” in purgatory with the knowledge that he will one day be fully united with God.

the burning of the soul is the pain of separation from God, the burning of the body will commence at the end of the world when the bodies of all are reunited with their souls. Those who chose eternal separation from God do so with full knowledge of the extent of their sufferings, and freely choose it anyway.


#5

Take the documentaries you see with a grain of salt. My husband and I use to watch the history channel, but lately there has been a lot of documentraies about the bible which are contrary to Catholic belief. We have noticed they interview the same “experts” on most of these. We have stopped watching.


#6

Think of it this way…

In eternity, God will grant us the fulfillment of that which we want most.

If it’s God, we get God. Forever.

If it’s you, you’ll get you. Forever.

Is that an easier pill to swallow? All you have to do is want God most, and seek Him with your whole heart. If you seek you with your whole heart and not God, you is eactly what you’ll get (to the exclusion of God).

There’s only one reason why we’re not all Saints at this very moment: we don’t really want to be. This is at once the scariest and most hopeful thing I have ever heard. God wants to give us this gift, but we won’t take it because our hands are full. All we have to do is to let go.

God Bless,
RyanL


#7

This is so true, and you stating this reinforces what I was just reading from a message by Our Lady, who said: “Souls who cling to sin cannot have their hands free to receive the treasures of grace that I hold out to them.

hurst


#8

Hurst,

That was a great explanation! You should teach RCIA or something!

S


#9

[quote=melbourne_guy]i find it really hard to find the justice in burning some one for eternity
[/quote]

"IX. If anyone says or thinks that the punishment of demons and of impious men is only temporary, and will one day have an end, and that a restoration (apokatastasis) will take place of demons and of impious men, let him be anathema.
Anathema to Origen and to that Adamantius, who set forth these opinions together with his nefarious and execrable and wicked doctrine and to whomsoever there is who thinks thus, or defends these opinions, or in any way hereafter at any time shall presume to protect them."
taken from the thread “Can Lucifer be saved?”


#10

[quote=melbourne_guy]i find it really hard to find the justice in burning some one for eternity, if some body is burning for 100 trillion years , wouldnt they forget why there even in hell? is it really fair to experience that much pain and suffering even after you have been rehabillitated and have been punished for what you have done on earth? i heard on a documetry that the banned book of “the apocalypse according to peter” when peter asks jesus how can those people suffer for so long , and jesus says “dont tell any one but they will one day be let out of hell”. is this true?
[/quote]

Eternity is a bit like a photograph - the people within the photograph don’t have a past or a future: the people who do, are those outside the photograph: but their pictures don’t. The moment at which they are photographed, is unchanging for those within the picture.

So with Hell - there’s no future in it. So, there are no trillions of years which will eventually end. To be in Hell is to be eternally fixed in the attitude to God in which one died. One is fixed in eternal death: Hell is sterile, frozen - not like God. That is all there is. Repentance isn’t posible if there is not something in man that can be converted - if all that remains is the disintegrated fragments of a human personality, there is no human person to convert: what is left is fit only to be chucked out into the garbage.

Damnation is a possibility because we are designed by God to love Him, freely. We don’t have to - there is no compulsion to do so. Love that is not freely given, is not love. And we are to do so, with all that we are & have - for that is how Jesus loved His Father: totally, with unlimited self-giving, without reservation of anything. And what He did, is to be how we do it. Our freedom to choose God, comes from His infinite freedom - God is not compelled by anything, all He does is supremely free. Our freedom is like that in kind, even though it is limited.

As we are free not to love God, we are free to hate God with all our heart and soul & mind & might, and to hate our neighbour as we hate ourselves, we are also free to go to Hell. But as God is Our Life, Our Joy, Peace, Happiness, & every good that is or can be, we can’t be happy without Him. That would be like drinking without drinking - happiness without God is a contradiction in terms. As it is supremely self-damaging to turn away from God Who has designed us so that we can be happy only in Him, to do so is to live a lie. Created things can be at peace only by being at peace with God - we are free to choose not to be at peace with Him.

God is not a sadist or torturer - it is because He is so infinitely Good, that God does not force us to choose Him freely (that too would be a contradiction in terms); that He makes us in such a way - IOW, in His own image - so that the possibility of rejecting God is real.

That’s how ISTM anyway ##


#11

ok thanks for every1s opinion. i dont reject enternal punishment but i just find it hard to process in my mind. and another thing.

If a sinner who merits hell asked in that moment of judgment to be restored to unity with God, he too would be given the opporunity to undergo that purification or “rehab” in purgatory with the knowledge that he will one day be fully united with God.

r u saying somebody like a buddhist, who rejected christ, has the oppurtunity to enter into purgatory on the day of judgment to redeem his soul? is this true ?

and another thing

everyone burning in hell is there because of their free will choice, and would not leave even if given the opportunity

i highly doubt people wouldnt want to leave hell once they have been there.


#12

[quote=melbourne_guy]r u saying somebody like a buddhist, who rejected christ, has the oppurtunity to enter into purgatory on the day of judgment to redeem his soul? is this true ?

and another thing
i highly doubt people wouldnt want to leave hell once they have been there.
[/quote]

Once you die, you do not have the opportunity to “do” anything. You get judged (and God does that). The real question is one of your relationship to God. Now, it is Catholic doctrine that there is no salvation outside of the Church and it is also Catholic doctrine that those who are not members of the Church through no fault of their own (aka invincible ignorance) can attain Heaven. Some people think that this is a contradiction. In fact, all graces we get for our salvation come through the Catholic Church. This is true for everyone in the world. Therefore, there is no salvation outside of the Church because it is through the Church that God grants us graces; including those who are not members. After all, the Catholic Church does not teach that those of the Old Testament, who died prior to Christ’s coming, all went to Hell. Likewise for those, like the Native Americans, who lived and died for centuries before Christian missionaries brought the Gospel to them.

When you die, the ultimate question (no, not “what do you get when you multiply six by nine?”) at the moment of your death is, “do you love God?” When you are face to face with your creator, will you reject Him or wish run into His embrace. Those who reject Him are immediately in Hell. This is what is meant that they go to Hell by their own free will. The torment they suffer is that of experiencing God’s burning love for all eternity and hating that love. I knew a girl in school who was practically adored by a boy she didn’t like. This is an imperfect analogy but it is similar to what Hell is like. Those in Hell do not “want out” because the only out is God and they hate Him. Why would anyone hate God? There can be lots of reasons. I personally think that there are lots who believe they love God but what they love is only their own idea of God. When faced with the ultimate reality of Him, they won’t love that at all! We all have misconceptions about God. Let’s pray for the humility to be willing to lay them aside for the real thing.

Those who wish to run to Him are in the “state of grace” and fall into two categories. Those who die with no trace of sin on their souls will immedately go to Him and, therefore, be eternally with Him which is Heaven. Those who still have traces of sin on their souls, however, will not be able to approach. They will remain in a special temporal existence in which they will experience God’s burning love for them but also their inability to approach Him. While this trial by fire is tortuous, it is also joyful because the souls in Purgatory are being cleansed by that fire and they know that they will be entering Heaven for all eternity. Don’t worry folks, I’ll be sure to turn off the gas and close the door when I finally get out! :smiley:

Everyone is destined for eternity. Once you are in eternity, you cannot change. Eternity is the opposite of time and time is the experience of change (or, also, the measurement of that experience). Therefore, once you die, you cannot “change your mind.” Whatever state your mind was in at the moment you died, whether you loved God or hated Him, is the state you will always be in.


#13

[quote=puzzleannie]everyone burning in hell is there because of their free will choice, and would not leave even if given the opportunity, because they have made an irrevocable choice against God, against goodness, against his mercy and justice. Is it fair? yes it is fair because God is all good, and all just, and all merciful. they had equal access to both his judgement and mercy, and rejected it. God will not force himself upon those that do not ask for union with him.
[/quote]

That is neither fair nor logical. If there was an afterlife, where one really experiences pain, a merciful god would not torment anyone for eternity. A just god would punish people for their evil, but he would also give them the opportunity for resocialisation. A god that punishes someome for not believing utter nonsense, and not “force” that nonsense into everyone in the first place (like making it so clear, that nobody can resist), is not good, just nor merciful.
BTW - to say, do what I want, or I’ll punish you forever, is called blackmail, not free choice.
But, we’ll see, perhaps Allah will punish us all for our evil.


#14

Those in Hell do not “want out” because the only out is God and they hate Him.

im not sure you people are understanding what im trying to say. Be realistic , -if i put an athiest in my oven for a thousand years then asked him “now do you love and believe in god ?” his answer wont be “Nah i still dont, i dont care how much you burn me im not going to love jesus or believe in him” his answer will be more like "ok ok since i have seen the punishment you can inflict i now understand that jesus is god and i love him"
it just makes me angry when people say “those in hell want to be there” The only people who want to be in hell are satanists, and i think even devil worshippers would get sick of hell after a day or two


#15

Hello, fellow Neibour :smiley:

I think an important thing to remember is God does not wish to send anyone to Hell, and he tries in a persons life time to get to them and give them many blessings and his love… but people choose to be ignorant and have a hatred towards God.

I think this may be an interesting site to look at concerning other religions catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0020.html

Towards the bottem of the page it explains a bit about Judgement

Hell is like an eternal separation from God, would you force someone into your home if they don’t like you or don’t want to be with you?

Once someone goes to Hell, they would only want out to escape the punishment, not to love God because they already made up their minds not to.

Hell does come accross as a fearful belief, pray on this issue and God should comfort you on this thought.

In peace,

Evanescence


#16

[quote=AnAtheist]That is neither fair nor logical.
[/quote]

It is entirely both if one doesn’t rely on distortions:

[quote=AnAtheist]If there was an afterlife, where one really experiences pain, a merciful god would not torment anyone for eternity. A just god would punish people for their evil, but he would also give them the opportunity for resocialisation.
[/quote]

God doesn’t torment anyone. God doesn’t punish anyone. God respects everyone’s ultimate choice for or against Him.

Also, one cannot help but giggle at the ironic temerity of “AnAtheist” seeking to dictate what God, if He exists, must or must not do.

[quote=AnAtheist]BTW - to say, do what I want, or I’ll punish you forever, is called blackmail, not free choice.
[/quote]

BTW, “do what I want, or I’ll punish you forever” is not Christian teaching. Rather than tilting at strawmen, take the time to actually learn true Christian doctrine.

– Mark L. Chance.


#17

[quote=mlchance]God doesn’t torment anyone. God doesn’t punish anyone.
[/quote]

If he has created Hell, where someone is punished, he ultimately does.

Also, one cannot help but giggle at the ironic temerity of “AnAtheist” seeking to dictate what God, if He exists, must or must not do.

I am just analysing some statements about God, and what consequences they have when thought to the end.

BTW, “do what I want, or I’ll punish you forever” is not Christian teaching.

I know, and that’s exactly the inconsistency in Christian doctrine, which I try to point out. “God respects everyone’s ultimate choice for or against Him.” That ultimate choice is in no way free, if a reward or punishment is conencted to it. And it is in no way fair, if you do not know how to choose, or even what to choose. And don’t tell me, God revealed that to us. He didn’t. Even if Christianity would be true, he revealed that only to a tiny minority of mankind, and that in a very contradictory way. That’s hardly a good communication policy.


#18

[quote=AnAtheist]I know…
[/quote]

And with that two word admission, so crumbles your entire “argument” against the Christian doctrine of Hell. It is at the heights of intellectual dishonesty to admit that one has erected a strawman and yet still continue to tilt at that strawman as if one can demonstrate anything substantive.

– Mark L. Chance.


#19

[quote=mlchance]And with that two word admission, so crumbles your entire “argument” against the Christian doctrine of Hell. It is at the heights of intellectual dishonesty to admit that one has erected a strawman and yet still continue to tilt at that strawman as if one can demonstrate anything substantive.
[/quote]

I will simplify my argument:

Christian doctrine says 2+2=5.
I say, that would make sense, if it would be 2+2=4.
You say, no, no, you have to learn, that doctrine says 2+2=5.
I say, I know, but it should be 2+2=4 to make any sense.
You cry “strawman”.


#20

I think what he means is that if at the moment of death (but before he is dead) he is given a last chance by Christ, and then accepts the Gospel, loves Jesus, and is sorry for all his offenses against God, then that person is saved and goes to purgatory to be prepared for heaven.

Just keep in mind that such a situation is an exception and not the rule. But we can hope for this if we are praying a lot for someone and have confidence in Jesus.

They want to leave the punishments of course, but they don’t want to trust God or obey Him. So they “prefer” to stay.

In the same way, those in heaven mainly stay not for the bliss, but because they want to trust and obey God. In fact, they give Him all the glory back!

Apocalypse 4:10 The four and twenty ancients fell down before him that sitteth on the throne, and adored him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying: 11 Thou art worthy, O Lord our God, to receive glory, and honour, and power: because thou hast created all things; and for thy will they were, and have been created.

This provides insight into how we should be also.

So you see the priority God enforces: choice first, then consequences. Choice based on consequences (good or bad) to oneself is imperfect, but useful. Choice based on doing justice to another is obedience. We enter by obedience of faith.

1 Samuel 12:24 Therefore fear the Lord, and serve him in truth and with your whole heart, …

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

hurst


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