The thread’s questions answered ideally… thank you
I absolutely and unequivocally DISAGREE.
This completely abolishes any idea that we have individual free will.
It would mean that nobody can be held accountable for any sin he commits (because all sin becomes God’s will, not our own will). This makes God into the author and cause of sin and evil.
It would mean that doing good is not personally meritorious (because we are simply behaving as we are controlled to behave).
It would mean there is no difference between Saints and sinners (we are all just actors on a stage, playing our parts - some as heroes, some as villains, with no control over what part we play - it is however the “director” casts us). So there could really be no heaven, and no hell (why should one person go to heaven, and another go to hell, if nobody had any free will?)
So God did NOT will this very conversation from the beginning?
No. I willed it, and you willed it. God permitted it.
Either of us could have chosen to go to bed (it is nearly two AM my time). God did not compel me to stay up and respond to your post. I wanted to do that (along with catching up on some other threads). It was my decision. It was not God’s decision. I am not some sort of automaton running some divine robotic program. I am no drone or puppet, and neither are you.
We are free-roving bovines. We roam free [tonight].
No. God did not will this very conversation.
God does not will that evil happen, yet it does. Man is free to choose to do that which is not God’s will.
No, see 1 Tim 2.3. God desires that all are saved but not all are saved (according to orthodox doctrine). Therefore, God’s desires are thwarted by man’s freedom. God’s will is not always done.
You are looking for a black and white response and their isn’t one because God allows free will and people do choose evil. Look and Joseph and his brothers. There were hundreds of ways that he could have ended up in Egypt ahead of time to save his family. God doesn’t motivate people to lie, sell someone into slavery, motivate someone to want to commit immorality etc. The story is riff with people making evil choices that doesn’t mean the God motivated them to do so. What your black and white question if answered yes ends up doing is making God the author and motivator of evil.
Many years ago a Protestant missionary with his wife and baby were flying somewhere in South America to do missionary work. The area had problems with drug cartel and fighting. The plane he was flying was shot at killing the wife and baby. He then went to the media and claimed that it was “God’s will” and “God even directed the bullet that killed his wife and baby”. Sorry but your question falls with this nut’s thinking. God does not motivate people to shoot at innocent planes to kill people. Likewise this man ignored warnings of about going into dangerous areas that have fighting. This man no matter how noble his desires were was foolish, made foolish choices, put his family in harms way with deadly consequences and God didn’t direct a bullet into his wife’s and baby’s heart. Trust me, if you start walking in front of a shooting gun, you are going to suffer the consequences of that. That isn’t God’s will but your dumb choices. This is true of Joni Erickson Tada. If you dive in a pool, not checking the depth, you most likely will break your neck which is what happen to her. Now God had certainly used her and her disability but you can’t tell me that God willed this for her. She made a bad choice in diving in shallow water and God’s laws of nature don’t discriminate.
Ok so a couple of things I’m seeing here. Firstly the assumption that God willing everything and individual free will being incompatible. I find that a stretch. Secondly I’m curious how allowing something to occur and willing something to occur, if One is all knowing and also at the end, are any different.
Well I think the assumption is that the ‘‘deaths’’ of these individuals aforementioned is evil. God allowing them to die is still God choosing when to allow them to die. He could have had any number of other outcomes in these scenarios yet He chose to allow them to occur the way they did. Which is still willing it. Now I have heard that God’s will has multiple facets. Operative will was a term used.
Everything happens either by God’s positive will or His permissive will. He wills to permit some evils to bring about greater goods. Here’s how St. Alphonsus Liguori explains this in his book on Uniformity with God’s Will (my emphasis):
[quote=St. Alphonsus Liguori]The essence of perfection is to embrace the will of God in all things, prosperous or adverse. In prosperity, even sinners find it easy to unite themselves to the divine will; but it takes saints to unite themselves to God’s will when things go wrong and are painful to self-love. Our conduct in such instances is the measure of our love of God. St. John of Avila used to say: “One ‘Blessed be God’ in times of adversity, is worth more than a thousand acts of gratitude in times of prosperity[1.]”
Furthermore, we must unite ourselves to God’s will not only in things that come to us directly from his hands, such as sickness, desolation, poverty, death of relatives, but likewise in those we suffer from man – for example, contempt, injustice, loss of reputation, loss of temporal goods and all kinds of persecution. On these occasions we must remember that whilst God does not will the sin, he does will our humiliation, our poverty, or our mortification, as the case may be.** It is certain and of faith, that whatever happens, happens by the will of God:** “I am the Lord forming the light and creating the darkness, making peace and creating evil.” From God come all things, good as well as evil. We call adversities evil; actually they are good and meritorious, when we receive them as coming from God’s hands: “Shall there be evil in a city which the Lord hath not done?” “Good things and evil, life and death, poverty and riches are from God.”
It is true, when one offends us unjustly,** God does not will his sin, nor does he concur in the sinner’s bad will; but God does, in a general way, concur in the material action by which such a one strikes us, robs us or does us an injury, so that God certainly wills the offense we suffer and it comes to us from his hands.** Thus the Lord told David he would be the author of those things he would suffer at the hands of Absalom: “I will raise up evils against thee out of thy own house, and I will take thy wives before thy face and give them to thy neighbor.” Hence too God told the Jews that in punishment for their sins, he would send the Assyrians to plunder them and spread destruction among them: “The Assyrian is the rod and staff of my anger . . . I will send him to take away the spoils.”"Assyrian wickedness served as God’s scourge for the Hebrews’’ is St. Augustine’s comment on this text. And our Lord himself told St. Peter that his sacred passion came not so much from man as from his Father: “The chalice which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?”
When the messenger came to announce to Job that the Sabeans had plundered his goods and slain his children, he said: “The Lord gave and the Lord taketh away.” He did not say: “The Lord hath given me my children and my possessions, and the Sabeans have taken them away.” He realized that adversity had come upon him by the will of God. Therefore he added: "As it hath pleased the Lord, so is it done. Blessed be the name of the Lord."We must not therefore consider the afflictions that come upon us as happening by chance or solely from the malice of men; we should be convinced that what happens, happens by the will of God. Apropos of this it is related that two martyrs, Epictetus and Atho, being put to the torture by having their bodies raked with iron hooks and burnt with flaming torches, kept repeating: “Work thy will upon us, O Lord.” Arrived at the place of execution, they exclaimed: "Eternal God, be thou blessed in that thy will has been entirely accomplished in us.’’
Someone that travels to dangerous areas that has fighting going on is taking a risk by their own choice. Now if they are killed because of foolish choices, is that the same as God directing bullets into peoples hearts? This kind of theology and thinking make God out to be a sadistic bully. Islam has this type of fatalism. Now I’m sure that this woman and her baby are in heaven with the Lord but does it mean that God directed this couple to make foolish choices of going into a war type zone with all its dangers and the chance of being killed? This is the same as children that are conceived by rape or immoral relationships. Does God will that people engage in immoral activity which resulted in conception and birth? This is the logical road you are traveling down. Your name is I love God but really who is going to love God that directs bullets into innocent hearts or directs people into immorality while having as one of the ten commandments don’t commit adultery?
I hope this article will help
We do know that God does have a grand design alluded to via biblical prophecy as well as a stated “end game” described in Revelation.
That being said, I don’t think is a micro-manager and specifically wills EVERYTHING that happens (although you could say he passivly will everything since he created the universe and all the possibilities that exist within it). And I don’t think a has a specific plan for every individual and I don’t think everything that happens (good or bad) is God’s specific will.
I think he nudges things towards his goal. Specific people are utilized and events are tweaked as needed in order to meet prophetic milestones and keep things moving towards what is promised in the book of Revelation. Sometimes the nudges and tweaks turn out good for the people involved & sometimes bad but I would bet the typical result is usually neutral but causes a ripple effect of sorts.