Evidence for Christianity - Can you demonstrate the factual correctness of the position that God is real and that Jesus is God by nuetrally looking at the evidence?


#1

Can you demonstrate the factual correctness of the position that God is real and that Jesus is God by presenting evidence without assuming the correctness (or incorrectness) of whether God exists and that Jesus is God?

For the purposes of this thread this should not be done by assuming that it is factually correct unless shown otherwise (or by assuming that it is factually incorrect unless shown otherwise) but instead by not assuming that it is factually correct (and not assuming that is factually incorrect), but instead by examining the evidence without bias.


#2

Of course not. People have been arguing about the existence of God for ages. If it were possible to convincingly demonstrate that God exists, the arguments would have ended long ago. Further, it’s hard enough to prove that Jesus actually existed, so proving he was God is well nigh impossible.


#3

peterkreeft.com/featured-writing.htm
peterkreeft.com/topics-more/20_arguments-gods-existence.htm


#4

No proof exists.

Volumes have been written on the various arguments for the reasonable belief in God, but none of them are “proofs” in the scientific sense.

Ultimately it has to come down to your own observations on the nature of the world and your own life experiences, faith in divinely revealed truth, and belief in the testimony of witnesses to that truth and the grace of God to accept those observations as truth.

Chuck


#5

One proof of God is that there is no other, “better” explanation for the universe, life and everything.

If you have a better provable (just applying your own standard) explanation for the universe, life and everything, then offer it and I will retract my statement.


#6

You’re in the minority; the majority of the world proclaims that there is a God and that Jesus Christ was and is God.

Why don’t *you * prove that he wasn’t?


#7

Actually, it is not hard to prove that Jesus Christ existed.
This is an historical fact that is not commonly disputed by anybody.

Amazingly enough, the fact that he performed miracles is not widely disputed either! What is actually argued is the explanation of the miracles.

Now, for the formerly weak-minded and timid disciples to suddenly be willing to be tortured and killed for professing His resurrection, that is proof enough for me that Jesus was God.


#8

Faith is accepted or rejected, not proved.


#9

First prove you are real. We’ll look at your proof and I hope you would be willing to use the same standard of proof to evaluate evidence. We must agree on a standard of proof before proof can be made, right?


#10

Excellent Point!

Why would millions of new Christians be persucuted by the hands of Rome for a lie. Just why? Many died in the mouths of hungry lions believing Jesus was God.

In Christ!


#11

No. You can’t get away from an emotional involvement in your philosophical conclusions. And the nature of the evidence isn’t such that you can apply defined tests, such as radio-dating or placebo-controlled blind trials, at least normally.

So you come to your conclusion on God vs atheism first, and then look for arguments to bolster it.


#12

While I don’t think this is entirely true (I think some people can be honestly agnostic, start examining the philosophical/etc arguments, and find their way to belief or unbelief), it’s worth noting that this really is how it works most of the time. Certainly in my experience, the game plays out as ‘What do I want to believe?’ and afterwards come the arguments.


#13

I guess then if it were possible to demonstrate that any knowledge at all exists, the arguments would have ended long ago. But they haven’t. The skeptic’s challenge that we can’t demonstrate that knowledge exists continues to be heard. You can get somebody to argue with you on just about anything. To use it as an evidentiary test is silly.

Difficult to prove that Jesus existed. I guess all of those PBS documentaries about who Jesus was ask the wrong question. The Bible as history taught in most secular universities around the world also better have a name change. Maybe they’ll also start teaching that the first manned moon mission was an elaborate hoax like some people claim. Theists refuse to believe in a fantasy world like this.


#14

I agree. I think that agnosticism is a ‘position’ which can be ‘held’ with a certain amount of integrity.


#15

Why would people fly airplanes into buildings if there weren’t 70 virgins waiting for them? Is it a lie that suicide bombers are martyrs doing God’s will?


#16

Look to your heart. Who do you say I AM ?


#17

I can’t say you missed the point, since the post you’re responding to didn’t exactly say this point: It’s not that people die for things they mistakenly think are true, which does happen. It’s that the original disciples would have had to die for something they KNEW was false. No one would do that. Someone, at some point, would have said, “Okay, since you’re going to kill me, I take back what I said about Jesus rising from the dead. We made it up.”

Unless, of course, they didn’t make it up.


#18

No, I can’t. For one thing, what counts as evidence?

The Catholic Church teaches that God’s existence can be proven rationally. Personally, I do not find the arguments to be more than probable (i.e., I think they are persuasive but not completely conclusive), but I am quite willing to accept that that is because of my own weakness and skeptical disposition.

That Jesus is God clearly cannot be proven, though there are certainly good reasons to believe it.

Edwin


#19

Ah yes Ammonius. At least the second time you’ve been asked this question, although maybe not in this thread. What will it take, even in general terms? I’ve seen what happens with you when people start casting their pearls about only to have you say it isn’t enough. And the answer “I don’t know” doesn’t cut it.


#20

I will leave it to God to judge suicide bombers, if they actually and sincerely believe they are doing God’s will.

But the point I am trying to make is that the original disciples who died for Christ were witnesses of His resurrection.
This is not blind faith, or them believing hearsay.

Keep in mind that NOBODY disputed the empty tomb.
It is well-documented that they suffered and died for Him.
They did not just BELIEVE He had risen, they KNEW it.

If they had not seen it with their own eyes, I promise you they would not have been willing to endure torture and death for Him.
I frankly don’t see how there could be any better proof than that.

I only pray that if the day ever comes where I am forced to choose death for Christ that I have the faith and strength to not deny Him.


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