Evil Popes


#1

As part of a long running discussion I’m involved in with a Bible Christian type fellow, I have been given Dave Hunt’s ‘A woman rides the beast’ to read. Jolly little book, isn’t it!

There are pages of Pope this did this and Pope so-and-so did that. It’s rather depressing reading. I have read the articles about the book in ‘This Rock’ but was wondering if anyone had any advice about these sorts of allegations. Personally, I feel that without thoroughly researching each and every quote, I have little hope of successfull defense- any ideas?


#2

Down through the centuries of course there have been bad Popes. Just like down through the centuries there have been bad heads of state, bad bosses, bad spouses, bad managing directors, bad politicians,bad Parish Priest’s etc. Of course we Catholics accept that fact.

Why did Germany rise again after Hitler? Why did Russia rise again after Ivan the terrible etc? It is because the heart of the country was in its people not in that particular one person at the fore.

Likewise with the Church. The miraculous thing about it is its constancy. It is here. It remains despite the bad Popes. So the words of Christ “The gates of hell will not prevail against it” are so visably active in the Church.

Moreover the heart of the Church is in the Eucharist and is in those who faithfully carry out Her precepts. The heart of the Church is not the Pope but the living heart of Christ that beats in every consecrated Host.

The heart of the Church is what matters. The heart of the church is the reason for its constancy.


#3

A good, easy and information packed book you might think about reading is POPE FICTION by Patrick Madrid.

This book tells the truth about those popes who are used by protestants to attack the church.

Get it,AFTER you have read it, give it to your friend. Fair is Fair.


#4

[quote=FightingFat]As part of a long running discussion I’m involved in with a Bible Christian type fellow, I have been given Dave Hunt’s ‘A woman rides the beast’ to read. Jolly little book, isn’t it!

There are pages of Pope this did this and Pope so-and-so did that. It’s rather depressing reading. I have read the articles about the book in ‘This Rock’ but was wondering if anyone had any advice about these sorts of allegations. Personally, I feel that without thoroughly researching each and every quote, I have little hope of successfull defense- any ideas?
[/quote]

Hi, friend-from-my-ancestors’-homeland.

The Gospels really, really rip-into Peter. He denies Christ three times the very same night he swears that he would never do so, after Christ gives him the benefit of a prediction. Christ tells him, “Get behind me, you Satan!” (!!!) ten seconds after He says, “You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church.” Peter tries to walk on water, but sinks! Jesus has to tell him three times, “Feed My sheep.”

Why do the gospels do this???

Because we are being prepared for the fact that God’s Holy Church will be run by the same morons who run everything else! For example, note the sin and stupidity of Church leaders in the Church sex cases, currently slamming the American Church.

But note well: Christ wouldn’t have warned us of this in the gospels if it would not be His Holy Church, despite the sin.

Do you understand what I am saying? Because of the defects and sins we see in the Church over the ages, the Church conforms very well to the bleak forebodings of Christ inherent in His treatment of Peter. I.e., be of good cheer! Love your Church, despite its sins and betrayals! It is still the Church which the Master set up!


#5

Hi,

I always, literally, hand them a pencil and a peice of paper, and tell them to write down a teaching of the Catholic Church that is evil.

THEN! I , literally, take a piece of papper and start writing down protestant teachings that are false. I start with Contraception and divorse.

It’s easy to destroy protestant lies.

Jesus Christ picked Judas. Ask them about that.

John


#6

I always, literally, hand them a pencil and a peice of paper, and tell them to write down a teaching of the Catholic Church that is evil.

That is good! People can be evil but what teaching of the church is evil.


#7

[quote=john654]Hi,

I always, literally, hand them a pencil and a peice of paper, and tell them to write down a teaching of the Catholic Church that is evil.

THEN! I , literally, take a piece of papper and start writing down protestant teachings that are false. I start with Contraception and divorse.

It’s easy to destroy protestant lies.

Jesus Christ picked Judas. Ask them about that.

John
[/quote]

This is a really good point and I usually clear it up by pointing out that if one is going to blow off any religious group for the moral failings of it’s human leaders you’d have to toss Christianity out right off the top because of the apostles…yet these men turned the world upside down…
I don’t see the greatest moral system in history failing just because some of us fail to live up to it…


#8

When these evil popes were about thier business, is it true that everything the pope said was regarded as as infallible?

So if what he said was the orders to unleash the horror of medaevil warfare for the gain of his children - that was god’s will and an infallible pronouncement. When he said - good idea - lets have a crusade against the cathars with mass burnings - that was god’s will and an infallible pronouncement.


#9

No - everything an evil pope said and did was not infallible.

You need to learn - as I did - about the difference between “infallible” and “impecable”.

Whenever a Pope has dealt with dogma or doctrine, the Holy Spirit has protected the Faith from heresy or corruption. However, every Pope has been a sinner - some, much more than others - by virtue of being a human being. Therefore, when acting as a mere man they cannot be impecable.

PS - please excuse any spelling errors as I am having a tough time typing today…swollen fingers…lololol.


#10

[quote=FightingFat]As part of a long running discussion I’m involved in with a Bible Christian type fellow, I have been given Dave Hunt’s ‘A woman rides the beast’ to read. Jolly little book, isn’t it!

There are pages of Pope this did this and Pope so-and-so did that. It’s rather depressing reading. I have read the articles about the book in ‘This Rock’ but was wondering if anyone had any advice about these sorts of allegations. Personally, I feel that without thoroughly researching each and every quote, I have little hope of successfull defense- any ideas?
[/quote]

I have a great defense. Stop reading Dave Hunt’s vitriolic garbage.


#11

As someone has pointed out, infallible and impeccable are different.

No pope, no matter if they were a saint or Alexander VI has changed the deposit of faith one bit. Nor have they ever taught error ex cathedra.

I think the fact the the Church’s teachings have remained constant despite these people is actually better evidence for the Church than against her.

Think of it this way:

Alexander VI had a mistress and a bunch of kids, but he didn’t change the Church’s teaching that fornication and adultery are wrong. That tells me something is guarding the faith.


#12

I read that tract in CA as well. What I’m saying is that before VI everything the Pope said was God’s will, right…Or wrong?


#13

[quote=Scott_Lafrance]I have a great defense. Stop reading Dave Hunt’s vitriolic garbage.
[/quote]

Scott -that is so you! If you don’t like what you’re hearing, stick your fingers in you ears and go lalalalalalaalalalaalalal.

:slight_smile:

This is actually part of an ongoing discussion I’m having with a protestant. He’s not bad actually!


#14

[quote=LSK]No - everything an evil pope said and did was not infallible.

You need to learn - as I did - about the difference between “infallible” and “impecable”.

Whenever a Pope has dealt with dogma or doctrine, the Holy Spirit has protected the Faith from heresy or corruption. However, every Pope has been a sinner - some, much more than others - by virtue of being a human being. Therefore, when acting as a mere man they cannot be impecable.

PS - please excuse any spelling errors as I am having a tough time typing today…swollen fingers…lololol.
[/quote]

All humans have the choice to cooperate with the gift of God’s grace. They can accept it or reject it. Many have chosen not to cooperate with grace in their personal actions, including some Popes.


#15

What I’m saying is that before VI everything the Pope said was God’s will, right…Or wrong?

Simple answer: wrong. :slight_smile:


#16

[quote=FightingFat]Scott -that is so you! If you don’t like what you’re hearing, stick your fingers in you ears and go lalalalalalaalalalaalalal.

:slight_smile:

This is actually part of an ongoing discussion I’m having with a protestant. He’s not bad actually!
[/quote]

Okay, if that tactic doesn’t work, just show him a picture of James Baker, Jimmy Swaggart, Oliver Cromwell (I’m sure you’re familar with this charming gent, being that your British and all).


#17

Again, it depends on why and *in what context *a Pope speaks.

To simply say “everything a Pope said is infallible” is to misrepresent the doctrine of infallibility.

LSK


#18

[quote=LSK]Again, it depends on why and *in what context *a Pope speaks.

To simply say “everything a Pope said is infallible” is to misrepresent the doctrine of infallibility.

LSK

[/quote]

That is a problem that most Catholics and non-Catholics don’t understand. They still believe the Pope can do no wrong and then apply that thinking to history to come up with the the belief the Church is hypocritical and they can’t in good conscience belong.


#19

[quote=john654]Hi,

I always, literally, hand them a pencil and a peice of paper, and tell them to write down a teaching of the Catholic Church that is evil.

THEN! I , literally, take a piece of papper and start writing down protestant teachings that are false. I start with Contraception and divorse.

It’s easy to destroy protestant lies.

Jesus Christ picked Judas. Ask them about that.

John
[/quote]

All of his apostles but one (St John) remained bravely on His crucifixion. Ask them about that, too … :rolleyes:


#20

[quote=john654]Hi,

I always, literally, hand them a pencil and a peice of paper, and tell them to write down a teaching of the Catholic Church that is evil.

THEN! I , literally, take a piece of papper and start writing down protestant teachings that are false. I start with Contraception and divorse.

It’s easy to destroy protestant lies.

Jesus Christ picked Judas. Ask them about that.

John
[/quote]

There were evil popes who were “appointed” by evil Roman emperors and others. That does not give Protestants the right to attack the Roman Catholic Church. However, the fact that this happen does not give you the authority to attact what you call Protestant lies. I pray to God nightly that we will learn to celebrate our faith regardless of our “memberships” in any one of God’s Churches instead of wasting our time attacking. I wonder if God is angered by our bickering?


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