I have a friend that says we should not have instruments in church because it is not in the bible. So is there?
Instead of trying to refute whether or not instruments in church are biblical, you should make him aware that the doctrine of Sola Scriptura is a false 16th century invention.
Scripture (especially the Psalms) is full of references to instruments: The ten-stringed lyre, cymbals (both big and small), pipes, Musical instruments are mentioned in I Samuel, I & II Chronicles . . . Always in reference to praise.
In I Cor 14:7, Paul says “If lifeless instruments, such as the flute or the harp, do not give distinct notes, how will anyone know what is played?”
Now, Paul may not be referencing Church music here, but instruments were familiar in the temple. It is my understanding that the prohibition of musical instruments in worship was introduced during the period of the exile (correct me if I am mistaken) and it related to “work” on the Sabbath.
Maybe the CofC is onto something here. At least they don’t have xylophones, tambourines, and electric guitars!
Well the Bible doesn’t really discuss Church Music but here you go:
Revelation 5:8 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Why would God oppose instruments in the Church if He surrounds himself with them in His Heaven?
One piece of advice though don’t use verses from the OT. A Church of Christ person will just say: “That’s the OT it doesn’t apply to the Church”. That isn’t good logic either but that is what they’ll give you.
You win! I forgot about Revelation!
good stuff guys thanks
rtconstant’s advice is sound. C of C will not accept anything from the OT.
But hey! They believe in baptismal regeneration (even if they are a “believers only” confession), so at least they got something right.
By that reasoning, we can’t use electric lights in church.
I’m sorry, but you are mistaken, according to my Church of Christ friends. You see, THEY are the New Covenant Church, and were visible until the upstart catholics, under the guidance of Constantine ran them underground. They surfaced again in the late 1870’s, I believe.
So this belief has been around for almost 2000 years.
Uhhhhhh, just don’t ask them for any proof of these allegations, ok? :rolleyes:
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
What will they come with next…
Yep…I got baptized at a church of Christ. Many of their doctrines follow the teachings of the Catholic church without them realizing it.
Oh man, if they ever found that out… :eek:
quote] Originally Posted by NotWorthy forums.catholic.com/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
*I’m sorry, but you are mistaken, according to my Church of Christ friends. You see, THEY are the New Covenant Church, and were visible until the upstart catholics, under the guidance of Constantine ran them underground. They surfaced again in the late 1870’s, I believe.
So this belief has been around for almost 2000 years.
Uhhhhhh, just don’t ask them for any proof of these allegations, ok? :rolleyes:*
What do you mean, they didn’t even come up with this!!! The Baptist invented it with “The Trail of Blood”!!! (At least I think its the Baptists).
I have very fond memories of the church of Christ I attended though…It was where my wife and I were baptized, it was where we were married and also made quite a few good friends. In my estimation, the CoC is right there on the verge of the Fullness of the Truth…CoC + Researching history of the first century Christians = finding the Catholic church. That is what happened to me and I thank God for bringing me to the CoC which led me to the Catholic church when the Lord knew I was ready.
Frankly, I think the motivation for being so adverse to using musical instruments is that the corporate founders of the Church of Christ realized that by playing to the popular fundamentalist secular trends and practices of Protestantism et-al that they could improve the franchise appeal by reducing the overhead of not having to purchase expensive organs, sound systems and paying for a music minister. In other words I am submitting that their motive may have been less ecclesial as it was financial. By making the ban on musical instruments an official church teaching they also made it financially easier for independent ministers to buy into their franchise model, start new churches under their franchise and get up to making profits and breaking even sooner. :rolleyes:
Color me skeptical…
That isn’t even close to the truth. I know for a fact that they didn’t believe in playing instrumental music because, to them, it wasn’t explicitly stated in the NT that it was an acceptable form of worship. To just state that it was a financial thing would be to question their faith altogether and I knew many that attended my old church of Christ congregation and they were so very faithful and loving of God. To question their doctrine is fair but to put their faith in Jesus Christ Himself into question for the sake of saving a few bucks is just plain wrong.
Daniel 3:5 (DRV)lists a menagerie of instruments in the Persian court:
sound of the trumpet, and of the flute, and of the harp, of the sackbut, and of the psaltery, and of the symphony
I know it was a pagan gathering, but I wonder what instruments they used originally. The verse lists modern instruments, for example; the sackbut (trombone) wasn’t invented until 1557 by Johann Georg Neuschel in Nuremburg. I don’t think the “symphony” was anything like the NY Philharmonic. It must have been one noisy band. The RSV mentions bagpipes. At least they had no saxophones.
I admit my statement is conjecture. I question the true motives of their church’s founders. It’s just a more lean and mean version of Protestantism. To put you at ease let me clarify that I am not questioning the faith of individual people who go to these churches - I am questioning the true motive of the people who formed the network concept and those who are using “the network” of loosely associated churches as a business system.
Their new capella music tradition used in worship services is fine. But its a clear stretch from the scripture verses to claim that the early church did not use musical instruments. The NT portions of the bible was not a history book nor even a partial recording of actual ecclesial practices. We know from forensic evidence for example that there was liturgy used in the early church (The Old Creed) and even in the baptismal rites but its not stated in the bible explicitly. What they are doing is just distancing their new eccleasial community as far away from Catholic practices as possible at a doctrinal level - nothing new here. But its disingenuous and a stretch for them to cherry pick bible verses that mention singing but don’t explicity mention instruments as justification of a capella form of worship devoid. They want to avoid rules and liturgy and hiearchy but then they spend a lot of energy and effort in attempts to justify less is more. Bizzare. I suppose they could be victim to nothing more profound than sentimentality. But if they really wanted to emulate the practices of the early church why do they build big predominant church building with modern electrical and lighting when the early church was worshiping mass in the middle of the night in the catacombs under candlelight or in small private homes to avoid persecution. :rolleyes:
There are MANY things that are absent from the NT - so why did they zero in on only the absence of musical instruments in the accounts while ignoring the scriptural absence of their modern practice of taking up financial collections to collect fees to pay the mortgage and franchise fee and the salaried minister? :rolleyes:
I appreciate too your sense of fairness in this but also ask you to consider if its fair to put me into a strawman that I question the faith of the rank and file when I gave no evidence of that position?
It just seemed to me from your previous post that you were questioning the faith of CoC’ers. Since that isnt the case, I apologize. I don’t think we will ever know if your theory is correct or not. It is just completely speculation but what isn’t speculation is how close the CoC is to knowing the Fullness of the Truth in the Catholic church. If they would all just read what the early church fathers wrote in the didache and elsewhere, they would convert to the Catholic faith just as I did.
Apology accepted - I was being flippant in my conjecture - one of those sort of days where I am just annoyed at all the false doctrine out there in Protestant land.