Excomunion for the muslims who made the London Bombings


#1

Will they be called kafirs?


#2

[quote=Franze]Will they be called kafirs?
[/quote]

perhaps you mean excommunicate?

islamically, what enters you into islam and makes you a muslim is belief in the heart and utterance of the tongue, meaning you have to profess islam by saying the two testimonies of faith (i testify that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah and that muhammad is His servant and messenger).

after entering into islam, nothing can take you out of it except an act of major disbelief - whether it be a belief that is held, a statement that is uttered or an action carried out.

while murder is a major sin in islam, it does not amount to major disbelief. so this in and of itself will not make one a kaafir.

also, the act of “excommunicating” (takfeer - the act of declaring one a disbeliever) has a certain number of conditions that have to be met and some preventive barriers that have to be removed. they are as follows (conditions are in blue, barriers are in red):

  1. knowledge that removes ignorance.
  2. intent that removes error and faulty interpretation.
  3. choice (free will) that removes compulsion.

in total, there are seven (three conditions and four barriers). if these conditions are met and the barriers removed, then the person can be declared to be a kaafir.

the only ones qualified to make this ruling are the erudite people of knowledge.


#3

You excomunate them?


#4

read the last line of my post:

[quote=r.gonzales]the only ones qualified to make this ruling are the erudite people of knowledge.
[/quote]

and i am not an erudite scholar qualified to make such a ruling.

prophet muhammad said, “whoever says to his brother, ‘o disbeliever!’ then surely it falls upon one of them.” meaning one of the two is a disbeliever - either the accused or the accuser.


#5

I often wonder if these people ever even took shahadah or if they are just out there to make muslims look bad.

Little conspiracy theory but I’ve seriously gotten fed-up with them.


#6

It would be great for all Londoners, side by side, to stage a “peace” protest against terrorism. Let’s leave all of the other politics aside, war in Iraq, and so on for one day. (The War in Iraq has certainly already had many days dedicated to peace protests.) For one day if all Londoners came together and said, “We outnumber the terrorists. We condemn violence. Let us come up with a solution to our grievances in ways other than violence” the image that all Muslims passively support terror would be dramatically decreased. For the Muslims, they could show the “peaceful” side of their faith and for non-Muslims, being side-by-side in opposition to terror will help in drawing their attention to Muslim grievances. I’m not making a judgment on whether the Muslim grievances are legitimate or not; I’m just stating that they will get more attention from Westerners in a positive way. In fact, the terrorists who claimed responsibility for the attacks in London have stated that Denmark and Italy are next. The citizens of all faiths in those countries need to stage rallies, as well, to warn terrorists that they will not wait like sitting ducks. The message should be “You can bomb us. You can kill some of us. But you can’t break our wills. The larger Muslim community and Christians are united in opposition to terror.”


#7

[quote=Eden]It would be great for all Londoners, side by side, to stage a “peace” protest against terrorism. Let’s leave all of the other politics aside, war in Iraq, and so on for one day. (The War in Iraq has certainly already had many days dedicated to peace protests.) For one day if all Londoners came together and said, “We outnumber the terrorists. We condemn violence. Let us come up with a solution to our grievances in ways other than violence” the image that all Muslims passively support terror would be dramatically decreased. For the Muslims, they could show the “peaceful” side of their faith and for non-Muslims, being side-by-side in opposition to terror will help in drawing their attention to Muslim grievances. I’m not making a judgment on whether the Muslim grievances are legitimate or not; I’m just stating that they will get more attention from Westerners in a positive way. In fact, the terrorists who claimed responsibility for the attacks in London have stated that Denmark and Italy are next. The citizens of all faiths in those countries need to stage rallies, as well, to warn terrorists that they will not wait like sitting ducks. The message should be “You can bomb us. You can kill some of us. But you can’t break our wills. The larger Muslim community and Christians are united in opposition to terror.”
[/quote]

Doesn’t this imply that Muslims would be saying that the jihadists who carried out acts which to non-Muslims are terrorist activities are, in fact, not Muslims ?

One cannot expect Muslims to view as atrocities acts which Islam allows or encourages or regards as legitimate - repellent as we non-Muslims may consider such acts.

One of the problems is, that the Muslims who do denounce such acts, are regarded as not being “true Muslims” by those who do approve of these acts. Which makes the Muslims critics of such acts something equivalent to the “liberals” whom so many Catholics denounce so heartily - such Muslims, right-minded as we may think them, are thereby marginalised; because:

“extremist” = Muslim martyr who blows up a bus to kill the infidel so that he may by his death extend the “House of Islam” and go to Paradise.

“moderate” = Muslim who defends such acts of martyrdom, or at least extenuates them

“reasonable Muslim” = in effect, an apostate, & roughly equivalent to a lapsed" Catholic, who gives comfort to the infidel by denouncing the martyrs, and is therefor a legitimate target for an act of martyrdom

This is a great problem :frowning:

What IMCO is unfair, is that Muslims should be expected to denounce such martyrs. ISTM wholly absurd for non-Muslim governments to expect Muslims to denounce them, just as it would be absurd to expect Catholics to denounce the Pope when he collides with what Western governments expect. Muslims must not be made to denounce what they cannot - they would then be like those Jesuits who suffered for obeying Paul V in 1606 when he forbade Catholics to take even a modified form of an oath of allegiance which allowed the Crown to intervene in Church affairs.

For Islam is missionary - it is not stationary: co-existence is not an ideal for Muslims, but a betrayal; because the whole purpose of Islam is that it should bring the whole world into submission to Allah. Christians ought to understand this impulse, for we seek - or we should ! - to bring the whole world into subjection to Christ. Communism shared - shares ? - this same impulse: so co-existence is not good enough. IMO, Islam is in a “post-Tridentine” summer, after a long period of stagnation. That we do not like this, is a mere detail.

It cannot be sufficiently emphasised that Islam is anti-democratic; it is a theocracy, and cannot not be. If for “fatwa” we read “Papal Bull”, for “Osama bin Laden”, “Gregory XIII”, for “imams”, “Cardinals of the Roman Congregations”, for “jihadists”, “Jesuits”, we will have a very rough but not entirely deceptive analogy to some features of the Catholic past. The Muslim loathing of democracy is no stronger than the 19th century Papal condemnations of it. The Muslim jihadists and their mentors are excellent social conservatives - just what so many Catholics so much wanted; & now they have them.

If this is tosh - please undermine it ##


#8

If a Muslim has committed a crime he CANNOT be excommunicated and declared a Kafir (concealer or disbeliever).

The only way they can be excommunicated is through a clear violation of Tawheed (Concept of the Oneness of God) or declaring a Prophet after Muhammmad. Such as setting up partners with God or worshipping another God or declaring Prophets after the Prophet Muhammad. No matter how deviant a Muslim is, if he is not in violation of of the Shahaddah (I bear witness that there is no god except the One God, and Muhammad is the Last Messenger of God), he cannot be declared a non-Muslim.

Islam has specific rules regarding the charging, trying and prosecution, and penalizing of criminals that murder. You cannot excommunicate them for murder.

BrJimC :cool:


#9

True enough, apostates are even worse in a muslim’s eyes, than murderers.

I believe in Allah, and I believe that Mohammed was a great leader, but he was not a prophet.


#10

[quote=hawk]True enough, apostates are even worse in a muslim’s eyes, than murderers.

I believe in Allah, and I believe that Mohammed was a great leader, but he was not a prophet.
[/quote]

fair enough hawk… for me… i didnt believe but now I do :slight_smile:

Peace


#11

[quote=BrJimC]fair enough hawk… for me… i didnt believe but now I do :slight_smile:

Peace
[/quote]

Peace to you too brother, I once believed, and now I dont.
:wink:

Wa’salam


#12

interesting… you validate yourself like that. You must be insecure in your belief…deep in your heart… because I already knew that and you had to make that a point :cool:


#13

[quote=BrJimC]interesting… you validate yourself like that. You must be insecure in your belief…deep in your heart… because I already knew that and you had to make that a point :cool:
[/quote]

:slight_smile:

Peace


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