Exodus 20:3/images


#1

One of the lethal weapons protestants use to make us doubt about our doctrine, is Exodus 20:3-5.

According to them, for those who worship other gods/images god won't bless the first, second, third, and fourth generation. But, what they do not tell us is their understanding of the verse 6.

“And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments” I know some one who is a protestant and has three sons and two daughters. All of her five children were born in the protestant religion, but from the five only one follows the word. The other four are away from God. In fact, one of them is in dead row, the other three are in parol. Do you know any body like that?

If, according to the protestant doctrine, God is going to bless even the sixth generation of those who do not worship or have any images, why do the protestant's sons/daughters are not been blessed like the word says? 

COULD IT BE THAT THE PASSAGE DOES NOT REFER TO THE CATHOLIC IMAGES?


#2

Yup! You answered your own question!


#3

[quote=Ricardo Gomez]One of the lethal weapons protestants use to make us doubt about our doctrine, is Exodus 20:3-5.

According to them, for those who worship other gods/images god won't bless the first, second, third, and fourth generation. But, what they do not tell us is their understanding of the verse 6.

“And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments” I know some one who is a protestant and has three sons and two daughters. All of her five children were born in the protestant religion, but from the five only one follows the word. The other four are away from God. In fact, one of them is in dead row, the other three are in parol. Do you know any body like that?

If, according to the protestant doctrine, God is going to bless even the sixth generation of those who do not worship or have any images, why do the protestant's sons/daughters are not been blessed like the word says? 

COULD IT BE THAT THE PASSAGE DOES NOT REFER TO THE CATHOLIC IMAGES?
[/quote]

Sorry but, this is probably the most illogical arguement I ever read on this forum. Anyone could pull an example of a Catholic family who is in the same situation and say ‘look! proof that Catholicsm is wrong!’


#4

[quote=UBERROGO]Sorry but, this is probably the most illogical arguement I ever read on this forum. Anyone could pull an example of a Catholic family who is in the same situation and say ‘look! proof that Catholicsm is wrong!’
[/quote]

Thank you for saying this! constantly here, whenever anyone brings up any other religion, a bunch of posters are ready to jump in with…Well I knew a ______ once who did such and such,just proves that ______ is an invalid religion.

I grew up in a Catholic Church, going to Catholic school in a devoted Catholic family, and there is no sin, depravity, abuse, scandal, or injustice that I did not witness taking place among these people. Yet, somehow I manage not to tell them that proves their religion is invalid. All it proves is that people are people, and we all need mercy, grace and divinity.

cheddar


#5

Glad I could help Cheddarsox, to give a lengthy example I could say ‘well you know how those Catholic school girls are haha’ but no! Cause guess what? Baptist, and Lutheran, and athiest etc schools girls all have the same reputation. It doesnt mean that it is true, in fact it could be construed as gossip.

I might look at it the other way and say ‘well I dont do the image thing and my kids are all successful in life, so that proves my religion is true.’ Well maybe my kids are successful for a different reason.

-Sam

ps I guess it wasnt that legthy!


#6

[quote=UBERROGO]Sorry but, this is probably the most illogical arguement I ever read on this forum. Anyone could pull an example of a Catholic family who is in the same situation and say ‘look! proof that Catholicsm is wrong!’
[/quote]

We talking about silly? You telling me this is illogical? Because the protestant brothers are saying that the false religion with other gods is the Catholic Church, and they use Exodus 20:3-5, but never explain the verse 6. Please make comments with spirit becuase there is web-site call FANATISM.COM. That is the place where there is no spiritual growth just information done by unhappy people, who tend to have a negative energy.


#7

[quote=Ricardo Gomez]We talking about silly? You telling me this is illogical? Because the protestant brothers are saying that the false religion with other gods is the Catholic Church, and they use Exodus 20:3-5, but never explain the verse 6. Please make comments with spirit becuase there is web-site call FANATISM.COM. That is the place where there is no spiritual growth just information done by unhappy people, who tend to have a negative energy.
[/quote]

So because the Protestant brothers are ill informed makes your statement logical? I must not understand your above questions. Please clarify. I am not sure how to further clarify my statements below, possibly another brother or sister can help me. I will visit this site though and we should pray for them if they are as crazy asyou say.
Yours in Christ
Sam

edit: i couldnt find this web site


#8

[quote=UBERROGO]So because the Protestant brothers are ill informed makes your statement logical? I must not understand your above questions. Please clarify. I am not sure how to further clarify my statements below, possibly another brother or sister can help me. I will visit this site though and we should pray for them if they are as crazy asyou say.
Yours in Christ
Sam

edit: i couldnt find this web site
[/quote]

All I am saying is that if the protestant brothers are using Exodus 20:3-5, its just a matter of understand the verse 6. Now if you want to read more into it do it in fanatism.com


#9

why didnt you say that in the first place? :slight_smile:


#10

hola de nuevo:

how much time will ricardo’s suspention will last???


#11

exodus 20 3-5 in spanish just for ricardo (hope he will see it) sorry but i dont have a bible in english.

No habrá para ti otros dioses delante de mí.
4 No te harás escultura ni imagen alguna ni de lo que hay arriba en los cielos, ni de lo que hay abajo en la tierra, ni de lo que hay en las aguas debajo de la tierra.
5 No te postrarás ante ellas ni les darás culto, porque yo Yahveh, tu Dios, soy un Dios celoso, que castigo la iniquidad de los padres en los hijos hasta la tercera y cuarta generación de los que me odian,

here clearly says so: THE ONLY WORSHIP IS TO GOD AND GOD ALONE.
no worsiping statues, Mary, the saints nor anybody else.


#12

hi, im new, simple catholic, just share my ideas,

the passage never refer to catholic images, coz the scripture never say the term catholic images, Exodus 20:3-5 is very clear that anything or images treated as God is forbidden by God, but if anything or images treated not as God is permitted by God thats why we have our pictures, trophys, moving images like movies etc… and its not idolatry, if we continue on (KJV) Exodus 25:18-19 God himself clearly COMMANDS Moses to Make IMAGES, and in verse 21 " and thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee. 22 and there I will meet with thee, and I will COMMUNE with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel." Mat 22:20 " and he said to them, whose IMAGE and Inscription is this? " here Jesus never condemns the making of images, but rather used it as a tool in his preaching.


#13

I think the best defense against such claims is the bronze serpent. Start the argument like this…

Can God do or command anything that is intrinsically wrong.
They should answer, “NO”

To which you answer, “Well God himself commanded Moses to create the image of a Bronze serpent in Numbers 21.”

To this they will usually reply that it is different because of such and such a reason.

To which you reply, ‘It is not different. It all matters in how one perceives or treats such a visible item. At first the Bronze Serpent was a great and healing item because it was utilized for the greatness of God. But as we see in 2 Kings 18 such things can become idolatry if treated incorrectly.”

Such is the same with the images of the current church. They are not intrinsically wrong in and of themselves but in how we perceive and treat them.

Didn’t Jesus himself say in regards to food, “It is not what we put into our stomach that makes us unclean but what we put in our hearts.”

The same concept can be extended to images, “It is not what we put into our eyes and hands that is sinful but what we put into our hearts and minds that makes such a thing idolatry.”

Side note: Protestants believe that we are to keep the Commandments - they just don’t believe that doing such a thing Justifies us…


#14

[quote=Ricardo Gomez] In fact, one of them is in dead row,
[/quote]

So was the Son of Mary and so was the son of Jona.


#15

[quote=Ricardo Gomez]One of the lethal weapons protestants use to make us doubt about our doctrine, is Exodus 20:3-5.

According to them, for those who worship other gods/images god won’t bless the first, second, third, and fourth generation. But, what they do not tell us is their understanding of the verse 6.

“And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments” I know some one who is a protestant and has three sons and two daughters. All of her five children were born in the protestant religion, but from the five only one follows the word. The other four are away from God. In fact, one of them is in dead row, the other three are in parol. Do you know any body like that?

If, according to the protestant doctrine, God is going to bless even the sixth generation of those who do not worship or have any images, why do the protestant’s sons/daughters are not been blessed like the word says?

COULD IT BE THAT THE PASSAGE DOES NOT REFER TO THE CATHOLIC IMAGES?
[/quote]

It doesn’t - though it can perfectly well have an application to all things that are not God, and which are therefore all capable of being idolised.

What puzzles me, is that the image-rejecters don’t seem to be quite clear about whether:
[list]
*]having images at all
*]having images of holy people
*]giving them adoration
*]giving them relative honour
*]giving them relative adoration
*]having them in churches
*]having representations of created things - flags, for example
*]having figural representations in the round - such as statues
*]having flat figural representations - such as photographs
[/list]is what is wrong.

The principle which allows dollar-bills with pictures of George Washington, and allows statues of the Reformers, and statues of public figures, but won’t allow holy cards of the mother of God or St.Philip Neri or St. John the Baptist, is never spelled out - so it is very hard to know what part of that text is the fatal objection to Catholic “idolatry”.

After all, George Washington and Teddy Roosevelt were both “in the earth beneath” - so don’t Mount Rushmore and the USA currency come under the prohibition of Exodus 20 ?

And Catholics do not worship representations of the Saints - but “Hail to the Chief” looks remarkably like a hymn. And why is the Statue of Liberty not as objectionable as a holy picture ? As for “America the Beautiful” & “My Country, 'tis of Thee”, what are those but signs of Americolatry ?

The trouble with ignoring the intentions of Catholics, is that it becomes possible to insist that using minted money with the head of some famous person on it, is idolatry, as much for Protestants as for any one else.

The “popular Protestant” argument looks very much as if it has been framed for one purpose only - to convict Catholics of idolatry, despite their intentions.

To complain of Catholic “idolatry”, while ignoring Catholics’ intentions & the intentions of Protestants, is not only inconsistent - it is a superstitious attitude; for any argument that is not purely partisan, must be be applied not only to the behaviour of one’s opponents, but to one’s own side’s behaviour as well. Otherwise one has nothing but one-sided special pleading.

That is a problem with Fundamentalism - the conclusion is more important than the reasoning by which it is arrived at. ##


#16

#17

[quote=Shibboleth]I think the best defense against such claims is the bronze serpent. Start the argument like this…

Can God do or command anything that is intrinsically wrong.
They should answer, “NO”

To which you answer, “Well God himself commanded Moses to create the image of a Bronze serpent in Numbers 21.”

To this they will usually reply that it is different because of such and such a reason.

To which you reply, ‘It is not different. It all matters in how one perceives or treats such a visible item. At first the Bronze Serpent was a great and healing item because it was utilized for the greatness of God. But as we see in 2 Kings 18 such things can become idolatry if treated incorrectly.”

Such is the same with the images of the current church. They are not intrinsically wrong in and of themselves but in how we perceive and treat them.

Didn’t Jesus himself say in regards to food, “It is not what we put into our stomach that makes us unclean but what we put in our hearts.”

The same concept can be extended to images, “It is not what we put into our eyes and hands that is sinful but what we put into our hearts and minds that makes such a thing idolatry.”

Side note: Protestants believe that we are to keep the Commandments - they just don’t believe that doing such a thing Justifies us…
[/quote]

That is the spirit. I have to say it “you make a lot of sense”, Thank you. Ps you’re in my buddy list.


#18

[quote=miguel delgado]hola de nuevo:

how much time will ricardo’s suspention will last???
[/quote]

I am back and I am done with half of the promised research. I should be done with it next week.


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