Expelled activists describe cold-blooded killings

Well if you want to start creating such outlandish fantasies we might as well ask whether the Israelis knew for sure that there wasn’t a nuclear bomb on the ship. Be serious.

Except for the poster I responded to.

They were running a blockade to deliver humanitarian aid to Gaza. Whether or not a confrontation would occur was up to Israel.

They wouldn’t allow the ship to be searched because it carried clothing, shoes, fresh meat and produce, construction materials, children’s toys etc which all fall under the Israeli definition of contraband as far as Palestinians are concerned. Israel had considered simply sinking the flotilla but decided against it because they thought it would make them look worse on tv than dropping armed commandos out of the sky. An attempt at preservation of there image is also the reason why they’re refusing to allow an independent inquiry.

The Egyptians closed their border again because of the election of Hammas. Turkey didn’t support Israel’s blockade; in fact, they once again asked that it be lifted before the flotilla even set sail.

The cargo could have been inspected at port by independent observers.

If you consider the truth to be propaganda.

The IDF’s account of what happen continues to hold. They thought they were going to be facing peace activists bringing humanitarian aid. It couldn’t have been further from reality, and they were ambushed as soon as they set foot on board. The soldiers did everything they could to avoid using lethal force, but were given no choice.
Of course, the left will do anything they can to demonize Israel, so they will ignore and manipulate the facts of the situation. (Don’t call them anti-Semitic, though!)

Facts are unimportant to the left actually. This is their photo-op.
The left desires the dismantling of the Jewish state of Israel. They consistently work toward that goal.
Maybe it is anti-semitism at play. Maybe it is just a reflex of automatically taking the opposite position of the Christian right in America.

I don’t know why this is their goal. I only know that it is the goal that they are driving toward.

What a bunch of lies… I will sum up my opinion thusly:

If the UN is against it… you’re in the right. The UN is WORTHLESS!

NOTICE

Discuss the issues charitably. No name calling. Don’t call anyone a liar.

Discussions of different governments and their actions is expected here. Members should not call each other names for differing on how they view the actions of different governments.

For example, it is not anti-Semitic to disagree with the actions of the state of Israel. It is unacceptable to call all Jews or Muslims murderers.

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It had the clear intention of entering territory over which Israel has sovereignty, as specified by the Oslo accords.

Ships attempting to run a blockade are fair game in international waters.

Oh, and you STILL have not told me who those “capable of fighting back” are, as you boasted in another thread…would you care to?

Israel has no sovereignty over the Gaza Strip. Its occupation has been repeatedly denounced as illegal by the Security Council and all 15 judges on the International Court of Justice in 2004 agreed that Gaza is Occupied Palestinian Territory. Even if the Oslo Accords mean anything (which they don’t, as Israel totally ignores them anyway) there’s nothing in them giving Israel sovereignty over Gaza.

[quote="LutheranDK]Ships attempting to run a blockade are fair game in international waters.
[/quote]

Not blockades of this description:

[quote=LutheranDK]Oh, and you STILL have not told me who those “capable of fighting back” are, as you boasted in another thread…would you care to?
[/quote]

I have told you. You just insist on pretending I didn’t answer your question when I did. The Israeli army is a totally undisciplined rabble of cowards and hooligans. They boast about how they flew 3,000 combat missions over Gaza without a single plane being damaged, as if flying over an open prison of refugee camps with no anti-aircraft defences dropping bombs on homes, schools, mosques and hospitals is some kind of great achievement. They kill hundreds of children and gloat about their spectacular ‘military victory’ while admitting that they didn’t fight a single battle because there was no enemy in the field. Yes very impressive, that is until they pick a fight with an enemy capable of fighting back, then they fall apart like in 2006 when a few thousand modestly armed Hezbollah fighters humiliated them. Just look at what happened with that flotilla they couldn’t even handle a few dozen civilians armed with sticks and slingshots because they’re so useless. There are pictures of the soldiers who were disarmed by the passengers crying like little children because they’re so scared, and we’re talking about Israel’s elite commandos here! What do you think their regular troops are like? No wonder Israel is too terrified of Hezbollah to dare attack Lebanon again.

I must say while I disagree with Israel’s actions in these instances I’d like to dissassociate myself from the last post there by Kadaveri which reads like propaganda. I see neither the Israelis or Palestinians as been without blame in the cyclical history of violence they have become enmeshed in and I have scant time for blustering rants about Israelis, Palestinians, Muslims, Christians or any other group as a whole.

Is anything I said untrue?

Your generalised comments on Israeli soldiers are propagandist. My father served alongside Israeli soldiers in his time as a soldier as have other members of my family from Russia on peacekeeping missions. My wife’s grandfather was a Jewish officer in the Russian military as a matter of interest. The contention that the Israeli army is only a bunch of cowards and is indisciplined is not relfective of reality but rather of cheap propaganda. While I disagree with much of Israel’s policies as they stand I prefer not to subscribe to arguments that substitute abuse for reasoned debate. The fact is the Israeli army is not a bunch of indisciplined cowards and attempting to pretend they are is frankly ludicrous.

My family has a history on both sides of oppossing the British during our War of Independence but you would not find my grandparents contending that as a whole the British Army was a bunch of indisciplined cowards. Some units did have reputations for this and brutality but the reality was our opponent was a major world power with a comparable army at the time. In the same way the Isralies possess a first-rate army. First rate armies are not built on a lack of discipline. You will never be succesful against any enemy in any battle if you generalise them using cheap propaganda.

The Israeli army of your father and wife’s grandfather’s generation is not the Israeli army of today. The reason why Israel is a major military power is because it has vast amounts of firepower incomparable to anything in the region. So it can readily ‘go wild’ demonstrating ‘real hooliganism’ (Tzipi Livni’s words) in order to ‘punish, humiliate and terrorise the civilian population’ (Goldstone Report) because its leadership believes causing ‘the destruction of homes and infastructure and the suffering of hundreds of thousands of people’ putting political pressure on enemy combatants is a better way to subdue resistance than ‘spilling our soldiers’ blood in attempts to overtake fortified positions’.

This isn’t cheap propaganda, This is how the Israelis operate and they do so because of the strengths and weaknesses of their society. You defeat your enemy by understanding these strengths and weaknesses and learning how best to exploit them.

Not over the LAND territory of Gaza, no. But the sea territory

Wrong. The IDF are amongst the best troops in the world. They should be - they’re battle-hardened. And even if your claim was accurate - what does that say of the Arab armies which have been DEVASTATED each and every time the Arabs has forced wars on Israel? :thumbsup:

Ever heard of RPGs? And no, we’re not talking about Role-Playing Games here.
Secondly: Israel does not generally attack civilian targets on purpose. If it did, it wouldn’t have the security problem it does. But when a civilian building is used for a military purpose, for example as machinegun-nests, then it becomes a military target.

Because the enemy hides like dogs and pigs amongst civilians. Hard to fight an enemy that’s too chickensh… to face one in open battle.

You mean by hiding amongst civilians so the IDF couldn’t properly engage them without unacceptable levels of civilian casualties?

No, because they were caught off-guard. They did not anticipate that a supposed “aid ship” would be armed at all. But yes, Israel could have handled this case better, surely. A ship attempting to run a blockade is fair game, and can legally be sunk.

I can find you a picture of Osama bin Laden flushing a koran down the toilet…or taking a dump on it. It’s called “photoshop”.

I’m just pointing to the fact that EVERY SINGLE TIME the Arabs have forced a regular war on Israel, the last time being the Yom Kippur-war, they have been beaten…very thoroughly. And in the Yom Kippur-war, they even had the advantage of surprise. Doesn’t that speak volumes of the incompetence of the armies of the Arab nations? They invade an enemy who has NO idea they’re coming, and STILL lose.

I repeat my challenge: Tell me, which of Israel’s enemies that “is capable of fighting back”, and who doesn’t hide behind women and children, using schools and hospitals as machinegun-nests, etc. Tell me. You won’t be able to, because no such enemy exist. Arabs are incapable of fighting like men, so instead they choose to whine like little girls, and blow themselves up in cafes, supermarkets and schoolbusses.

I can even send you a real one, if you like? Though it won’t be bin Laden in the picture…
“The koran” makes a decent footrest, btw.

Israel doesn’t have sovereignty over Gaza’s waters either. I don’t know where you pulled that from or how it’s even possible to have sovereignty over Gazan waters yet not over Gaza itself.

That you have to go as far back as 1967 for evidence of the IDF being ‘amongst the best troops in the world’ does not do your claim many favours, as I said earlier the IDF of that generation is not the IDF of today. The IDF of today are certainly not ‘battle-hardened’, when was the last time they were even in a ‘battle’? Dropping white phosphorus over refugee camps does not make you ‘battle-hardened’.

RPGs do not take down F-16s.

There’s no evidence that the civilian targets Israel bombed in Gaza or Lebanon most recently were being used for military purposes, human rights groups (Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch etc…) and the UN have published extensive reports on this aspect of Israeli military operations and have all rejected these claims. Israel officials themselves (when it’s not just their propagandists on Western TV news) say the
reason why they attack civilians is to inflict heavy suffering on the civilian population so that they’ll put pressure on militants to stop fighting Israel.

Again, no evidence that this happened. The published reports from Israeli soldiers who participated in Operation Cast Lead (mostly from Breaking the Silence) don’t report that the enemy was hiding amongst civilians, but that there wasn’t even any enemy at all. They just bombed and shelled civilians totally unimpeded by any resistance.

Again independent organisations looked into these claims during the 2006 Lebanon War. For example Human Rights Watch published a lengthy report and in this case found that in the vast majority of cases where Lebanese civilians were killed by Israeli forces there had been no Hezbollah activity in the area and that Lebanese civilians were deliberately targeted and not killed accidentally. Or if you don’t like HRW then the US Army War College published an extensive study on the 2006 Israel-Lebanon War based primarily on interviews with Israeli soldiers and military officials who participated in the conflict, their conclusions:

[quote=]the key battlefields in the land campaign south of the Litani River were mostly devoid of civilians, and IDF participants consistently report little or no meaningful intermingling of Hezbollah fighters and noncombatants. Nor is there any systematic reporting of Hezbollah using civilians in the combat zone as shields.
[/quote]

And…

[quote=]In 2006, the great majority of Hezbollah’s fighters wore uniforms. In fact, their equipment and clothing were remarkably similar to many state militaries’— desert or green fatigues, helmets, web vests, body armor, dog tags, and rank insignia. On occasion, IDF units hesitated to fire on Hezbollah parties in the open because their kit, from a distance, looked so much like IDF infantry’s: at Addaisseh, seven Hezbollah fighters were mistaken for Israelis until an IDF soldier noticed that one of them was wearing track shoes.
[/quote]

Read the reports in full (especially the one by the US War College which is very good) to learn what exactly the nature of that war was. You’ll see that Hezbollah fighters fought ferciously in the actual battlefields south of the Litani River (where there were barely any civilians) and the Israeli ground troops were not very impressive at all. Most of the civilians killed by Israel were nowhere near any battlefield but were killed because Israel decided to bomb them in order to try and turn the population against Hezbollah. For example during the war they heavily bombed a working class Shi’a suburb of Beirut consisting mainly of six-storey apartment blocks called the Dahiya killing hundreds of civilians because in the last elections most of population voted for Hezbollah. There were no military targets or battles occuring within 60 miles of Beirut, this kind of action cannot be explained away with ‘Hezbollah militants use human shields’ excuses.

Armed with sticks, slingshots and in one video even a few plates? If they weren’t expecting any resistance then why did they launch an armed commando raid in the middle of the night? Why did they not just politely board the ship in the daytime if they were expecting no resistance? If they were really caught off-guard that means the Israeli army must be pretty stupid, they had weeks to prepare for this operation and still made a total mess of it.

Again, not when the blockade is illegal.

Israel itself says the photos are genuine.

The Yom Kippur War was not forced on Israel. Since 1971 Anwar Sadat had been repeatedly offering Israel a full peace treaty if it would give Egypt its territory back yet Israel refused. Sadat also warned Israel many times that if it did not withdraw then Egypt would go to war to get its territory back. If Israel had ‘NO idea they’re coming’ then that was down to their own stupidity.

Besides, Egypt was not beaten very thoroughly, it was a very close run thing and Israel only gained the upper hand when the US sent the largest supply of military aid since WWII to turn things around. The reason why Israel stopped refusing to withdraw from Egyptian territory after 1973 is because Egypt gave them a real scare in the war.

The Arabs were imcompetant in the 1960s yes. In fact most of them were well in the 1980s, Israel has always depended on its enemies being corrupt and stupid for most of its victories. However, times are changing. Israel has not managed to pull off a major victory in such a long time because their enemies are becoming much smarter and committed, whereas the Israelis themselves are becoming increasing stupid and corrupt. Many of the Israeli cabinet are under indictment for corruption (including the foreign minister). They have a Prime Minister who narrowly avoided corruption charges 10 years back, who himself replaced Prime Minister resigned under corruption claims and is now on trial for taking bribes, and their President got his job because the previous incumbant resigned for stealing money and raping his secretary.

Hezbollah.

Would the same critique apply in reverse to Palestine? I can understand coming from Ireland why the Palestinians cannot take on the Israelis in open set-piece battles as that would be suicidal. However the same weakness in your rhetoric is also evident in the rhetoric of extreme republican groups in Ireland. The same problem is visible in both, you accusse the other side of been barbaric (which it can be at times) however you remain blind to the barbarism infecting your own side. No revolution or revolutionary group will ever be perfectly free of those problems or ‘pure’, however the IRA long ago lost my support in Ireland as it moved from fighting what I considered a brutal but justifiable war to collapsing admidst internal splintering which led to more control by die-hard extremists. Now I admit the Palestinians are in a worse state consistently than anyone in the north of Ireland was over the last 40 years but still internal splinter groups, dubious tactics like suicide bombign of civilians etc have lost the Palestinians much support over the years.

The Israelis are not invincible nor superman but it is fallacious to pretend their army is other than what it is. A well trained professional army equipped with superior equipment to anyone else in the local region.

Oh boy.

You’re offering to send the guy a picture of you defaecating on the ‘‘Koran’’ !!!

Then go on to imply you use the Koran as a footrest.

This, addressed to a muslim poster.

What would your response be if a non-christian threatened to send you the same, but using the Bible?? Or insults the Bible by implying they use it as a footrest???

Without doubt, this is the most offensive vulgar post Ive ever read on CAF.

And I think it disqualifies you from any reasonable debate.

How about: The Israeli army is a totally undisciplined rabble of cowards and hooligans.

Is this untrue< Kadaveri?

Muslims attack Sikhs
Muslims attack Hindus
Muslims attack Buddhists
Muslims attack Jews
Muslims attack Christians
Muslims attack Jains
Muslims attack Ba’hais

Maybe it IS time people start pushing back.

International law allows for blockades of enemy waters when one is under armed attack.

Reuters had an article about that where they interviewed several experts on International maritime law.

CAN ISRAEL IMPOSE A NAVAL BLOCKADE ON GAZA?

Yes it can, according to the law of blockade which was derived from customary international law and codified in the 1909 Declaration of London. It was updated in 1994 in a legally recognised document called the “San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea”. Under some of the key rules, a blockade must be declared and notified to all belligerents and neutral states, access to neutral ports cannot be blocked, and an area can only be blockaded which is under enemy control.

“On the basis that Hamas is the ruling entity of Gaza and Israel is in the midst of an armed struggle against that ruling entity, the blockade is legal,” said Philip Roche, partner in the shipping disputes and risk management team with law firm Norton Rose.

alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LDE6511I7.htm

Since Hamas is the state government for Gaza, and it is in armed conflict, Israel has the right, under International blockade law, to inspect ships bound for enemy controlled area.

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