Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of these exisiting outside of the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but Jews, and Heretics, and Schismatics, can never be partakers of eternal life, but that they are going into eterna fire” which was prepared for the devil, and his angles"(Mt 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this Ecclesiastical Body, that only those remaining within the unity can profit from the sacraments of the Church unto Salvation, and that they alone can recieve an eternal recompsense fro their fasts, almsdeeds , and other works of Christian piety and duties of a Christian solder. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the name of Christ, can be saaved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Chruch." (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino 1441).

A “rad trad” quoted me this the other day stressing a “hard-line” approach to “Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus”.

I thought that the Church’s official understanding of this passage understood this in view of things like “invincible ignorance”.

But if the above is true, is there a change in teaching? How would you handle that?

the Church does understand it with invincible ignorance involved… u can take a number of different quotes like, unam sanctum, trent, council of florence etc…(Church documents need to interpreted the way the Church intends them to be). and use it to take a “feeneyite” position… feeney, a priest from Mass., taught that only formal members (water baptism) of the Catholic church could be saved…And he used quote like the one u quoted from Florence…the Bottom line is the Holy office under pius the XII rejected the feeney position… saying that “explicit faith is not always necessary for salvation” like pius the IX said in quandam singulari …" those who through no fault of their own, do not enter the Catholic church they incur no guilt in the eyes of our Lord…" so one has to be invincibly ignorant… now some people mistake this to mean if Protestant or jew or muslim etc does not want to or does not believe in the catholic church that they will still be saved cause they are ignorant WRONG!! THE IGNORANCE MUST BE INVINCIBLE…THEY HAVE TO BE IGNORANT AND THE IGNORANCE HAS TO BE NOT THEIR FAULT…SO IN CONCLUSION–one does have to be Catholic to be saved but one can be saved with implicit faith if they are invincibly ignorant and try to follow God to the best of their ability…

The rad trads are wrong . Ignore marineboy and his ilk.

The teaching (EENS) has never changed, some people at various times have decided to give it their own personal slant and some indeed, such as Fr Feeney have had to be disciplined by the Church for it.

‘And so it is with the theological slogan, extra ecclesiam nulla salus (Latin for “outside the Church, no salvation”). This is a doctrine of the Catholic Church, one that’s found in every age of Catholic history, and it’s held to by the Church’s best and most influential minds. Understood properly, its dogmatic truth is beyond question. The problem arises, however, when this slogan is given a life of its own. And so it was in the 1940s with Fr. Leonard Feeney.’

envoymagazine.com/backis…coverstory.html

Protestants are in ‘a certain, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church’ (see below)

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

Who belongs to the Catholic Church?

836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation."320

837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’"321

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist."324

he Catholic Church makes claims about herself that are easily misunderstood, especially in the modern atmosphere of pluralism and ecumenism. Among these claims, the most fundamental is the doctrine of the Church’s necessity for salvation. Not unlike other dogmas of the faith, this one has seen some remarkable development, and the dogmatic progress has been especially marked since the definition of papal infallibility. It seems that as the Church further clarified her own identity as regards the papacy and collegiality, she also deepened (without changing) her self-understanding as the mediator of salvation to mankind…

Those who are privileged to share in the fullness of the Church’s riches of revealed wisdom, sacramental power, divinely assured guidance, and blessings of community life cannot pride themselves on having deserved what they possess. Rather they should humbly recognize their chosen position and gratefully live up to the covenant to which they have been called. Otherwise what began as a sign of God’s special favor on earth may end as a witness to his justice in the life to come.

Fr John Hardon SJ
ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ315.HTM

CCC - A sure norm for teaching the faith JPII

scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm

Wounds to unity

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272
(My Bold)

To take the example of EENS, (no salvation outside the Church) the CCC is quite clear

CCC 847 - This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation

Really, if you want an authoritive answer to a Catholic position you go to the Catechism - get your rad trad to repudiate this. If they do they are probably closet sedevacantists frankly.

III. THE AIM AND INTENDED READERSHIP OF THE CATECHISM

11 This catechism aims at presenting an organic synthesis of the essential and fundamental contents of Catholic doctrine, as regards both faith and morals, in the light of the Second Vatican Council and the whole of the Church’s Tradition. Its principal sources are the Sacred Scriptures, the Fathers of the Church, the liturgy, and the Church’s Magisterium. It is intended to serve “as a point of reference for the catechisms or compendia that are composed in the various countries”.15

scborromeo.org/ccc/prologue.htm#III

POSTOLIC CONSTITUTION
FIDEI DEPOSITUM

ON THE PUBLICATION OF THE

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

PREPARED FOLLOWING THE SECOND VATICAN ECUMENICAL COUNCIL

JOHN PAUL, BISHOP
SERVANT OF THE SERVANTS OF GOD
FOR EVERLASTING MEMORY

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, lastly, is offered to every individual who asks us to give an account of the hope that is in us (cf. 1 Pt 3:15) and who wants to know what the Catholic Church believes.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved 25 June last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church’s faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition and the Church’s Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion.

scborromeo.org/ccc/aposcons.htm

Hence all my CCC quotes.

Pope John Paul II May 31, 1995 General Audience

All Salvation Comes Through Christ

  1. The difficulties that sometimes accompany the development of evangelization highlight a delicate problem, whose solution is not to be sought in purely historical or sociological terms: the problem of the salvation of those who do not visibly belong to the Church. We have not been given the possibility to discern the mystery of God’s action in minds and hearts, in order to assess the power of Christ’s grace as he takes possession, in life and in death, of all that “the Father gives him”, and which he himself proclaims he does not want to “lose”. We hear him repeat this in one of the suggested Gospel readings in the Mass for the dead (cf. Jn 6:39-40).

However, as I wrote in the Encyclical Redemptoris missio, the gift of salvation cannot be limited "to those who explicitly believe in Christ and have entered the Church. Since salvation is offered to all, it must be made concretely available to all ". And, in admitting that it is concretely impossible for many people to have access to the Gospel message, I added: “Many people do not have the opportunity to come to know or accept the Gospel revelation or to enter the Church. The social and cultural conditions in which they live do not permit this, and frequently they have been brought up in other religious traditions” (Redemptoris missio, n. 10).

We must acknowledge that, as far as human beings can know and foresee, this practical impossibility would seem destined to last a long time yet, perhaps until the work of evangelization is finally completed. Jesus himself warned that only the Father knows “the exact time” set by him for the establishment of his kingdom in the world (cf. Acts 1:7).

  1. What I have said above, however, does not justify the relativistic position of those who maintain that a way of salvation can be found in any religion, even independently of faith in Christ the Redeemer, and that interreligious dialogue must be based on this ambiguous idea. That solution to the problem of the salvation of those who do not profess the Christian creed is not in conformity with the Gospel. Rather, we must maintain that the way of salvation always passes through Christ, and therefore the Church and her missionaries have the task of making him known and loved in every time, place and culture. Apart from Christ “there is no salvation”. As Peter proclaimed before the Sanhedrin at the very start of the apostolic preaching: “There is no other name in the whole world given to men by which we are to be saved” (Acts 4:12).

(cont’d)

For those too who through no fault of their own do not know Christ and are not recognized as Christians, the divine plan has provided a way of salvation. As we read in the Council’s Decree on Missionary Activity Ad gentes, we believe that “in ways known to himself, God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel” to the faith necessary for salvation (Ad gentes, n. 7). Certainly, the condition “through no fault of their own” cannot be verified nor weighed by human evaluation, but must be left to the divine judgment alone. For this reason, the Council states in the Constitution Gaudium et spes that in the heart of every man of good will “grace is active invisibly”, and that “the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partners, in a way known to God, in the paschal mystery” (Gaudium et spes, n. 22).

  1. It is important to stress that the way of salvation taken by those who do not know the Gospel is not a way apart from Christ and the Church. The universal salvific will is linked to the one mediation of Christ. The First Letter to Timothy states it: “God our Saviour … wants all men to be saved and come to know the truth. And the truth is this: God is one. One also is the mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all” (2:3-6). Peter proclaims it when he says that “there is no salvation in anyone else” and calls Jesus the “cornerstone” (Acts 4:11-12), emphasizing Christ’s necessary role at the basis of the Church.

This affirmation of the Saviour’s “uniqueness” derives from the Lord’s own words. He stated that he came “to give his life in ransom for the many” (Mk 10:45), that is, for humanity, as St. Paul explains when he writes: “One died for all” (2 Cor 5:14; cf. Rom 5:18). Christ won universal salvation with the gift of his own life: no other mediator has been established by God as Saviour. The unique value of the sacrifice of the Cross must always be acknowledged in the destiny of every man.

(cont’d)

  1. Since Christ brings about salvation through his Mystical Body, which is the Church, the way of salvation is connected essentially with the Church. The axiom extra Ecclesiam nullasalus *–“outside the Church there is no salvation”–stated by St. Cyprian (Epist. 73, 21; PL 1123 AB), belongs to the Christian tradition and was included in the Fourth Lateran Council (DS 802), in the Bull Unam sanctam of Boniface VIII (DS 870) and in the Council of Florence (Decretum pro jacobitis, DS 1351).

The axiom means that for those who are not ignorant of the fact that the Church has been established as necessary by God through Jesus Christ, there is an obligation to enter the Church and remain in her in order to attain salvation (cf. Lumen gentium, n. 14). For those, however, who have not received the Gospel proclamation, as I wrote in the Encyclical Redemptoris missio, salvation is accessible in mysterious ways, inasmuch as divine grace is granted to them by virtue of Christ’s redeeming sacrifice, without external membership in the Church, but nonetheless always in relation to her (cf. n. 10). It is a “mysterious relationship”: myseterious for those who receive the grace, because they do not know the Church and sometimes even outwardly reject her; it is also mysterious in itself, because it is linked to the saving mystery of grace, which includes an essential reference to the Church founded by the Saviour.

In order to take effect, saving grace requires acceptance, co-operation, a yes to the divine gift: and this acceptance is, at least implicitly, oriented to Christ and the Church. Thus it can also be said that *sine Ecclesia nullasalus *–“without the Church there is no salvation”: belonging to the Church, the Mystical Body of Christ, however implicitly and indeed mysteriously, is an essential condition for salvation.

  1. Religions can exercise a positive influence on the destiny of those who belong to them and follow their guidance in a sincere spirit. However, if decisive action for salvation is the work of the Holy Spirit, we must keep in mind that man receives his salvation only from Christ through the Holy Spirit. Salvation already begins during earthly life, which grace, when accepted and responded to, makes fruitful in the Gospel sense for earth and for heaven.

Hence the importance of the Church’s indispensable role: she “is not an end unto herself, but rather is fervently concerned to be completely of Christ, in Christ and for Christ, as well as completely of men, among men and for men”. This role then is not “ecclesiocentric”, as is sometimes said: the Church does not exist nor does she work for herself, but is at the service of a humanity called to divine sonship in Christ (cf. Redemptoris missio, n. 19). She thus exercises an implicit mediation also with regard to those who do not know the Gospel.

L’Osservatore Romano, English Edition, June 7, 1995, p. 11.

With thanks to dan-man 916 for source.

Lumen Gentium 16.

Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126); But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.

An excellent post by dan-man916

DECREE ON ECUMENISM
UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO

Chapter 1

3.The children who are born into these (separated) Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection. For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect.

The differences that exist in varying degrees between them and the Catholic Church-whether in doctrine and sometimes in discipline, or concerning the structure of the Church-do indeed create many obstacles, sometimes serious ones, to full ecclesiastical communion. The ecumenical movement is striving to overcome these obstacles. But even in spite of them it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ’s body,(21) and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.(22)

It follows that the separated Churches(23) and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church.

This, from the highest teaching authority of the Church. These are clear and plain words and act to interpret what the older Church documents previously said. So when someone claims to tell you what the Church teaches regarding this subject, remember that it is the CHurch that has the authority to interpret what it believes, not individuals.

forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=341908&postcount=4

jgc says to ignore ME but my position is the appropriAte one…the catechism is correct it is juSt using “nicer” language… which is fine but when we look at the totality of Church documents u wills ee that my postion is the most correct for the simple fact that the Church teaches that Protestants maybe related to the Church but they are not full members… Pius XII in the mystical body of Christ states, " ONLY those must be considered as members of the CHURCH, who have recieved the bath of regeneration, who profess the true faith, and have not miserably withdrawn from the union of the Body not have been seperated from it by the legitimate authority on account of very serious offenses." (denzinger 3902) pius IX explicitly said that non-catholic religious groups are not members og the CHURCH (apostolic Letter iam vos omnes, 1868 denzinger 2997) and EVEN VATICAN II says, “Those are fully incorporated into the society of the Church, are thosE who profess the faith, and take part in the sacraments and adhere to the ecclesiastical government and communion.” Constitution on the Church , n0.14) NOW I FULLY CONCED ONE CAN BE RELATED TO THE CHURCH PARTICULARY IF ONE IS INVINCIBLY IGNORANT… JGC SAYS SOME RIGHT THINGS BUT UR PROBLEM JG IS THAT U NEVER MENTION INVINCLE IGNORANCE NEVER EVER ,the word invincible is key -----THE PROTESTANT MUST BE INVINCIBLY IGNORANT NOT JUST IGNORANT----THE IGNORANCE CANT BE HIS FAULT–PLEASE GET THAT THROUGH UR HEAD–U CAN QUOTE THE NICE LANGUAGE IN THE CATECHISM ALL U WANT—BUT IT SAYS NO DIFFERENT ,IN CONTENT, THEN WHAT I AM SAYING–IF A PROTESTANT IS NOT INVINCIBLY IGNORANT THEN HE WILL INCUR GUILT IN THE EYES OF THE LORD… HE MSUT BE INVINCIBLY IGNORANT…I HOPE I AM CLEAR

[quote=marineboy]jgc says to ignore ME but my position is the appropriAte one…the catechism is correct it is juSt using “nicer” language… which is fine but when we look at the totality of Church documents u wills ee that my postion is the most correct for the simple fact that the Church teaches that Protestants maybe related to the Church but they are not full members… Pius XII in the mystical body of Christ states, " ONLY those must be considered as members of the CHURCH, who have recieved the bath of regeneration, who profess the true faith, and have not miserably withdrawn from the union of the Body not have been seperated from it by the legitimate authority on account of very serious offenses." (denzinger 3902) pius IX explicitly said that non-catholic religious groups are not members og the CHURCH (apostolic Letter iam vos omnes, 1868 denzinger 2997) and EVEN VATICAN II says, “Those are fully incorporated into the society of the Church, are thosE who profess the faith, and take part in the sacraments and adhere to the ecclesiastical government and communion.” Constitution on the Church , n0.14) NOW I FULLY CONCED ONE CAN BE RELATED TO THE CHURCH PARTICULARY IF ONE IS INVINCIBLY IGNORANT… JGC SAYS SOME RIGHT THINGS BUT UR PROBLEM JG IS THAT U NEVER MENTION INVINCLE IGNORANCE NEVER EVER ,the word invincible is key -----THE PROTESTANT MUST BE INVINCIBLY IGNORANT NOT JUST IGNORANT----THE IGNORANCE CANT BE HIS FAULT–PLEASE GET THAT THROUGH UR HEAD–U CAN QUOTE THE NICE LANGUAGE IN THE CATECHISM ALL U WANT—BUT IT SAYS NO DIFFERENT ,IN CONTENT, THEN WHAT I AM SAYING–IF A PROTESTANT IS NOT INVINCIBLY IGNORANT THEN HE WILL INCUR GUILT IN THE EYES OF THE LORD… HE MSUT BE INVINCIBLY IGNORANT…I HOPE I AM CLEAR
[/quote]

Well, readers can take their choice. Your slant with random quotes selected to back your position or the Catechism and the Church.

Your posts do generally contain truth, particularly after you took on board my and other posters points, you have certainly toned down since earlier posts. It should also be noted you are not always corrrect, I pointed out where you were in total contradiction to Church teaching.

Unfortunately you are not clear. Your arguments are very muddled, your punctuation and grammar are shocking, as other posters have pointed out. This is not a critisism of you personally, I do not know your intelligence, education standards or perhaps other reasons that means you write this way.

On reflection, I reckon you are a cradle Catholic who does not understand the barriers to even understanding let alone entering the Catholic Church for those outside, and you have succumed to a easy thinking option of black and white. In this case, as most of life, it isn’t that simple.

U NEVER POINTED OUT WHERE I WAS IN DIRECT CONTRADICTION TO THE cHURCH TEACHING—u thought u did—when u quoted the catechism that said christ uses other non catholic churches as means of salvation…this doesnt say that those churches save… christ may use those churches to bring someone closer to the catholic church where salvation lies… u quoted this in response to me sayin that protestanism doesnt save–is till say that Protestanism doesnt save …if ur sayin, and i am not sayin u are, that it saves ur wrong!!! if a Protestant would be saved then he would have to be invincibly ignorant of the one true church and seek God to the best of his ability…i agree sometimes when i type fast i dont use the best grammar and sometimes i dont go and proof read… my apologies for that

[quote=JGC]The rad trads are wrong . Ignore marineboy and his ilk.

The teaching (EENS) has never changed, some people at various times have decided to give it their own personal slant and some indeed, such as Fr Feeney have had to be disciplined by the Church for it.

‘And so it is with the theological slogan, extra ecclesiam nulla salus (Latin for “outside the Church, no salvation”). This is a doctrine of the Catholic Church, one that’s found in every age of Catholic history, and it’s held to by the Church’s best and most influential minds. Understood properly, its dogmatic truth is beyond question. The problem arises, however, when this slogan is given a life of its own. And so it was in the 1940s with Fr. Leonard Feeney.’

envoymagazine.com/backis…coverstory.html
[/quote]

The alternative, is to call Envoy’s exposition wrong :slight_smile: - there is no effective way to stop Catholics calling each other names. EENS is a fantastic stimulus to the very narrowest “Fundacatholicism”: salvation is not salvation if it is for “a great number, which no man could count”, Heaven is not Heaven unless it includes gloating over the billions and trillions of lost.

It’s no good quoting the CCC or Vatican II - those are suspect in the eyes of some Catholics, because they are too friendly in tone to non-Catholics.

EENS is not found in every age - it was not found before the third century. Catholics too often make sweeping and untrue statements about the history of doctrine which are impossible to support without twisting facts or ignoring evidence that tells against them - the answer is to avoid making the statements :slight_smile:

It can be given a Christian sense - but, left to itself, it is open to abuse as a party label. So it needs to be supplemented by other, more important, statements about the Church.

IMO, perhaps Catholics could ask Rome for an authentic interpretation of the saying. That’s what bishops do, in doubtful matters. Then there might be an end of these (very damaging) controversies between us. ##

if u read my quote u will see i quote vatican II

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