Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus

Would appreciate any suggestions about this article on Feeneyism I’ve written:
cathworld.org/worlds/bible/thedude/againstfeeneyism.html

Good job, very thorough! :slight_smile:

Could you include hyperlinks in your article? For example, you have included the Letter from the Holy Office (DS 3870) which references Quanto conficiamur moerore. You have also included a quote from Quanto conficiamur moerore later in your article. It would be nice to be able to jump from the Letter from the Holy Office (DS 3870) right to the quote from Quanto conficiamur moerore.

Good idea. I’ve toyed with it before; I don’t really know how to do it though…

[quote=leemarsh2010]Would appreciate any suggestions about this article on Feeneyism I’ve written:
cathworld.org/worlds/bible/thedude/againstfeeneyism.html
[/quote]

You wrote:
Pope Bl. Pius IX
…For God, who knows completely the minds and souls, the thoughts and habits of all men, will not permit, in accord with His infinite goodness and mercy, anyone who is not guilty of a voluntary fault to suffer eternal punishment.
On Promotion of False Doctrines (Quanto Conficiamur Moerore*, no. 7*)

This has a profound error in it.
Advise using AAS or Denz.

I’ll make it easy for you:
Pope Pius IX: "…since God who clearly beholds, searches, and knows the minds, souls, thoughts, and habits of all men, because of His great goodness and mercy, will by no means suffer anyone to be punished with eternal torment who has not the guilt of deliberate sin" (encyclical Quanto conficiamur moerore, DS 1677).

To add a little clarity as to the significance:
[font=Verdana]Pope Innocent III: "The punishment of original sin is deprivation of the vision of God, but the punishment of actual sin is the torment of everlasting hell" (DS 410).

[/font]****

I think you misinterpreted Pope Eugene IV’s Bull.

It was directed to all. It is true, that schismatics, Jews, heretics, Muslims, etc, etc will not be saved UNLESS before death they unite themselves to the Catholic Church. And as you’ve pointed out, we know that those who through no fault of their own are not Catholic and who follow the law written in all our hearts, they too may be saved. These non-Catholics who are saved ARE united to the Church before death.

Here’s an example about how a heretical “martyr” may not be saved. Imagine some non-ignorant Gnostic who has some twisted heretical idea of Christ. He may shed his blood or die in the name of Christ, but since he is not united to the Church, he wouldn’t be saved.

Hyperlinks: text which will be hyperlinked in HTML code.

[quote=Genesis315] It was directed to all. It is true, that schismatics, Jews, heretics, Muslims, etc, etc will not be saved UNLESS before death they unite themselves to the Catholic Church. And as you’ve pointed out, we know that those who through no fault of their own are not Catholic and who follow the law written in all our hearts, they too may be saved. These non-Catholics who are saved ARE united to the Church before death.

Is this what it says in the CCC? I seem to recall that at minimum, all baptized persons belong to the Mystical Body and, despite their protests to the contrary, share membership in the Catholic Church. In other words one does not have to be or become a card carrying Catholic to be saved. If one, however recognizes that the Catholic Church is the true Church and does not convert, they are in deep doodoo. Perhaps I misundestood your answer. If so I apologize.
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[quote=rwoehmke]Is this what it says in the CCC? I seem to recall that at minimum, all baptized persons belong to the Mystical Body and, despite their protests to the contrary, share membership in the Catholic Church. In other words one does not have to be or become a card carrying Catholic to be saved. If one, however recognizes that the Catholic Church is the true Church and does not convert, they are in deep doodoo. Perhaps I misundestood your answer. If so I apologize.
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What you wrote is correct. I think that Genesis315 was not referring to Protestants because he/she didn’t include them in her list. Schismatics were included because they presumably know the necessity of the Church, but some of them probably don’t truly understand it, which is why they are schismatic.

[quote=Lazerlike42]What you wrote is correct. I think that Genesis315 was not referring to Protestants because he/she didn’t include them in her list. Schismatics were included because they presumably know the necessity of the Church, but some of them probably don’t truly understand it, which is why they are schismatic.
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Protestants are covered by heretics.

For the earlier post:

Some Protestants don’t have valid Baptism though. If through no fault of their own someone is not Catholic, they may be united to the Church in a non-visible way by following the law written on all our hearts, following the graces they are given, searching for Truth with an open heart, etc.

[quote=Genesis315]Protestants are covered by heretics.

For the earlier post:

Some Protestants don’t have valid Baptism though. If through no fault of their own someone is not Catholic, they may be united to the Church in a non-visible way by following the law written on all our hearts, following the graces they are given, searching for Truth with an open heart, etc.
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I could be wrong but to the best of my knowledge there is no “Protestant Heresy.” The heresies usually were deemed as such for teaching falsities about very fundamental Christian beliefs, such as the Trinity or Divinity of Jesus. If you want to include Protestants as heretics that’s fine with me.

If you’re saying that any Protestant who is baptized validly but through ignorance doesn’t join the Church is necessarily damned, then you would mistaken. All Protestants who are validly baptized are, even if they don’t realize it or want to be, united with the Catholic Church.

[quote=Lazerlike42]I could be wrong but to the best of my knowledge there is no “Protestant Heresy.” The heresies usually were deemed as such for teaching falsities about very fundamental Christian beliefs, such as the Trinity or Divinity of Jesus. If you want to include Protestants as heretics that’s fine with me.
[/quote]

Anything that goes against Catholic doctrine is heresy. I would say rejecting the Magesterium would make you a heretic. So would rejecting the Eucharist as the Real Flesh of Christ. All Protestants are at least material heretics. They may not be formal heretics if they believe these things through no fault of their own.

There are Catholic heretics too–“Cafeteria” Catholics are also heretics.

If you’re saying that any Protestant who is baptized validly but through ignorance doesn’t join the Church is necessarily damned, then you would mistaken. All Protestants who are validly baptized are, even if they don’t realize it or want to be, united with the Catholic Church.

I agree with you. Baptism is what unites us to the Church (whether it by water or desire). Haha, I think you mis-read what I wrote. Like I said before, if does not profess the Catholic faith through no fault of their own, they may still be saved.:thumbsup:

:cool:

[quote=TNT]You wrote:
Pope Bl. Pius IX
…For God, who knows completely the minds and souls, the thoughts and habits of all men, will not permit, in accord with His infinite goodness and mercy, anyone who is not guilty of a voluntary fault to suffer eternal punishment.
On Promotion of False Doctrines (Quanto Conficiamur Moerore*, no. 7*)

This has a profound error in it.
Advise using AAS or Denz.

I’ll make it easy for you:
Pope Pius IX: "…since God who clearly beholds, searches, and knows the minds, souls, thoughts, and habits of all men, because of His great goodness and mercy, will by no means suffer anyone to be punished with eternal torment who has not the guilt of deliberate sin" (encyclical Quanto conficiamur moerore, DS 1677).

To add a little clarity as to the significance:
[font=Verdana]Pope Innocent III: "The punishment of original sin is deprivation of the vision of God, but the punishment of actual sin is the torment of everlasting hell" (DS 410).

[/font]****
[/quote]

I am open to this suggestion, however, Denzinger is the only translation I have found that translates it this way. Could we possibly find the original Latin and discern which is correct?

BTW: I’ve made some changes based on suggestions. The new version is now online at:
catholicfiles.com/againstfeeneyism.html%between%

[quote=Genesis315]I would say rejecting the Magesterium would make you a heretic.
[/quote]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) defines Heresy and Schism as follows:

[quote=CCC, 2089]Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same;

schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him
[/quote]

The current Code of Canon Law (1983 CIC) defines heresy and schism as described below:

[quote=1983 CIC, 751]Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.
[/quote]

The 1917 Code defined them as follows:

[quote=1917 CIC, 1324, 1325.2]Heresy consists in a pertinacious denial of truths which have been defined and proposed by the Church as divinely revealed doctrines."
“Any baptized person… who pertinaciously denies or doubts any of the truths proposed for belief by divine and Catholic faith, is a heretic. …if he rejects the authority of the Supreme Pontiff or refuses communion with the members of the Church who are subject to him, he is a schismatic.”
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I would say that someone who rejects solely the authority of the Church (the magisterium) would be committing schism, and not heresy. Archbishop LeFebvre would be an example.

In Manibus Dei,

  • Mike M.
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