Ezekiel 18:4


#1

4 Behold all souls are mine: as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, the same shall die.(from the DR)

My JW friend uses the above verse to prove that the soul is not immortal.

They define the word soul as body but according to my friend this is the ONE time where they interpret it as spirit.

I believe that we, as Catholics, use the words soul and spirit interchangeable.

What is the meaning of the above verse?

Thanks


#2

This is the NLT translation of that same passage:

"For all people are mine to judge—both parents and children alike. And this is my rule: The person who sins is the one who will die. "

God judges all. Those who sin and do not repent will die (no afterlife with God), but the others will live forever. Ezekiel 18 is about family sin actually. A son doesn’t inherit his father’s sins, nor vice versa.

Here is more from Ezekiel 18:

" 20 The person who sins is the one who will die. The child will not be punished for the parent’s sins, and the parent will not be punished for the child’s sins. Righteous people will be rewarded for their own righteous behavior, and wicked people will be punished for their own wickedness. 21 But if wicked people turn away from all their sins and begin to obey my decrees and do what is just and right, they will surely live and not die. "

Really it has nothing to do with souls vs. spirits and such.


#3

I agree. But that is how she is using it. No immortal soul for her!!


#4

The word soul is often used as a metonymy for the whole person (not, however, the body).

This passage really holds no connection to the human afterlife.

ICXC NIKA.


#5

“Death” is not just the demise of the body (or soul, for that matter).

The second death would be damnation. The soul remains very much alive, but “death” is a metaphor for separation from God, which is what Hell is.


#6

Spiritual death is the soul without God in the afterlife. The soul is worthless, of no value, evil and wicked and would had been better off had it not been born, hence it is considered dead. This would mean that the fallen angels are spiritually dead as well. It is the angelic and human condition that we are evil and wicked without God in the afterlife…we were meant to be with God. How loving is that?..God created us just to be with Him. :slight_smile:


#7

So what will be the state of the 144,000 that they profess will go to heaven? Soulless bodies?


#8

Well, no.

If in fact they hold that the soul is the body; then in the physical resurrection, both are restored together.

ICXC NIKA


#9

Well, spiritual bodies such as what Paul talked about. Not the same as an earthly body.


#10
  1. Do they really hold that the soul is the body?

2). Since their numbers now far exceed 144K, IMS, the extra people will live on “Paradise Earth” and receive a renewed human body.

ICXC NIKA.


#11

They believe that the soul is the physical body. They believe that when the physical body dies God “remembers” the person(spirit) so at the second coming He can put the remembered spirit back into the resurrected body.


#12

Lots of people think they are going to get their old body back but I think Paul made it clear that we are not going to have the same kind of body. There won’t be sexual relations or other earthly functions of the body in heaven. Plus how old would the person’s body be - the age that it died? Do the JW’s answer that? Even when Jesus was resurrected it wasn’t the same kind of body, and most of his disciples didn’t even recognize him He could walk through walls too.


#13

Except His original body was reclaimed, too. The tomb was empty! Remember the hands and feet?

ICXC NIKA


#14

sure, but what about what I said?


#15

Great question. I will ask the next time I see her.

We are going to get a glorious body like Jesus resurrected in/with (?).

I don’t Jesus walked through walls. I think He willed to be there so He just appeared. That might be fanciful but that is what I believe.

If my dead father appeared in my room I don’t think I would believe that it was he either until he did something that I would recognize, just like Jesus did.

Just my thoughts.


#16

Exactly. That’s why Jesus had to show Thomas the nail holes. Otherwise he wouldn’t believe. But Jesus said it would be better to believe without seeing the holes. That’s what true faith is.

I don’t know how Jesus appeared suddenly in different places to his disciples, but it definitely had something to do with having a spiritual body rather than a physical body, don’t you think?


#17

If my dead father appeared in my room I don’t think I would believe that it was he either until he did something that I would recognize, just like Jesus did.

When somebody dies, the first cruel truth we learn as children is we are not getting that person back. Full stop!

So if someone does come back, our minds will not at first accept that, since it flies in the face of our understanding of reality, whether or not they resemble their pre-mortal body.

ICXC NIKA


#18

yes I think that makes sense. When we make contact with a spiritual body it’s not going to be like every day things. It will be harder to comprehend, but we may just sort of know if we are open to it.


#19

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