Faith or work can save us?


#347

Also, Paul here is speaking nothing of grace. The question: Was Christ’s death on the cross sufficient to save? Scripture (Jesus, Paul) and others say yes. Words like “sins of the whole world.” “For all mankind” “make you the father of a great nation” and such, addressing who God planned to save and how do not allow for our us to do anything other that believe and trust.


#348

[Jesus says] the work of God is to believe in the one whom he sent. John 6:29

How much do you wish to add to that?


#349

Prove it. Give me one reference where Paul speaks of natural law in both of those chapters.

And while you’re at it, explain why if works don’t matter Paul says in the verses I posted that we reap what we sow and that as Christians we must fulfill the Law of Christ.

Explain why in the Last Judgement Christ takes in those who do acts of charity even though both parties call Him Lord. Explain why the Lord says that if we don’t bear fruit we will be cut off from the Vine. One can’t earn salvation by his conduct, but he sure can blow it on that basis.


#350

That sacrifice demands our total obedience and imitation as well as belief. Jesus’ Sacrifice is sufficient to pay for the sins of the world, but that sacrifice lacks something: our participation.
“Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church” (Col 1:24)


#351

He also said, “I am the living Bread that came down from Heaven; anyone who eats this Bread will live forever, and the Bread I will give is My Flesh for the life of the world,” and “Unless you eat of the Flesh of the Son of Man, and drink of His Blood, you shall not have life within you.”

Not only must we believe, we must obey His command to consume Him.


#352

All Christians suffer with Christ as part of their service to him. He said we would. Your quote does not refer to any imaginary shortcoming of Christ or his work. “Christ’s afflictions” are not over until the last day for believers.


#353

You need both. Your works flow directly from your faith. If your faith is sincere and you’ve surrendered your human will to God’s will, you’ll do good works naturally; you witness Christ, literally. It is not about doing works to get points, an obligation, a means to an end.


#354

“Our participation”, as you say, is the heresy of Pelagius addressed at the Council of Carthage in early 400’s AD. It discounted Gods grace and sufficiency and made our cooperation with God (synergism) necessary to salvation. St. Augustin stood in opposition to Pelagius. So does St. Paul and Jesus Christ. Now, go and totally obey by your own works, imitate Christ (by your own works) but please for your sake and the sake of the faithful, don’t say that Christ’s sacrifice lacks anything. He said, from the cross that it is finished. Trust him, not your own understandings.


#355

Yes, Pure Gospel! In eating and drinking as he commands we receive the forgiveness of sins (grace) as he says. Not “law” which only condemns and shows our guilt, but grace which offers freedom, eternal life! Read Paul in Romans Chap 7.


#356

Not His commands. Himself. Remember the Last Supper?

Isn’t eating something you do?


#357

Augustine said, “He who made you without you will not save you without you.” So it is grace that saves, but grace requires a response. Salvation is a gift; you can’t earn it, but you can blow it.

And Paul said he was making up for what the sufferings of Christ lacked. So if you want to disagree with inspired Scripture, go ahead.


#358

The problem is that we cannot take Scriptures and bounce them on a vacuum… St. Paul also warned that we must work out our Salvation in fear and trembling… does that mean that he espouses the idea that man can save himself? No. It means that he is fully cognizant of Jesus Command that we abide in Him (St. John 15:1-10); that we must, as St. James puts it, be doers of the Word not just listeners.

This neat ‘just have faith’ or ‘just believe’ package was introduced by those who were seeking a done deal rescue-salvation construct.

Can we add to Jesus’ Suffering? Yet, St. Paul Teaches that we must. Why? Because ours is a Fellowship with Christ and in Christ:

But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 For all you are the children of light, and children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6 Therefore, let us not sleep, as others do; but let us watch, and be sober. 7 For they that sleep, sleep in the night; and they that are drunk, are drunk in the night. 8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, having on the breastplate of faith and charity, and for a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God hath not appointed us unto wrath, but unto the purchasing of salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 Who died for us; that, whether we watch or sleep, we may live together with him. 11 For which cause comfort one another; and edify one another, as you also do. 12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them who labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you: (1 Thessalonians 5)

Maran atha!

Angel


#359

Hi, T!

…actually, there were different branches of Judaism that made such claims… the problem lies in what Jesus found in them… it is the reason why He called them hypocrites and blind leaders.

While it is true that the Holy Spirit can use any person, at any time, as St. Paul stated God is not a God of chaos (confusion) but of order… as He Gave some to be Apostles… the problem we have in your “Catholic” or “One Church” is that man determines what God means (interpretation of Scriptures) which often more than not runs against Revelation.

Take for instance two simple Commands that Jesus Made: Love one another and Be One, in ME!

How can the world “believe” when Christendom is so divided?

How can there not be chaos when a “new body of Christ” is erected whenever “brethrens” come to an impasse or theological disagreement?

Do you truly believe that the Holy Spirit has been working for the last 5 to 6 hundred years to splinter the Body of Christ?

Maran atha!

Angel


#360

Catholic theology does not add to Christ’s Salvific Plan; it only implements what Christ Command:

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ (St. Matthew 7)

Jesus Calls out those who purported to be in Fellowship with Him because they performed awesome signs… their Faith was short on Love:

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ 37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ 40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ (St. Matthew 25)

The righteous were not even aware that they were doing anything but God’s Will while the faith only relied upon their own purchasing of Salvation through their “faith alone.”

Maran atha!

Angel


#361

The problem lies in the rendering of “faith” and “belief.” Scriptures tells us that it is good that we have faith/believe in God… yet, they also warn that demons believe also!

Maran atha!

Angel


#362

Do you not see how you are now integrating the Christian life experience into Christ?

This is what “Faith” and “Believe” means; we are One in Christ. Yet, we cannot remain divided and claim that Unity. We cannot claim Christ as our Savior (Salvation as a done deal) without Abiding in Christ (working out our Salvation in fear and trembling).

Maran atha!

Angel


#363

Yet, that Grace, which is our Salvation is dependent upon that Faith/Belief which is intertwined with our Obedience to do God’s Will–simple I’m saved cause Christ died on the cross comes quite short of Eternal Salvation.

Maran atha!

Angel


#364

jcrichton, good to hear from you but your argument is flawed sir. Here’s why: To interpret what the original bible authors meant when they wrote their gospels and letters is a needed skill and science. Only by the 19th. century and beyond has anyone given any real credence to the skill of good interpretation.

Unfortunately, the Church as a whole, and in each generation, been victims of poor and sloppy bible interpretation. In some cases it is not even an interpretation at all, but an imposed political will over unsuspecting people using scripture as a guise. This has been a huge abuse for centuries.

But God does use members of His body to interpret what the early Apostles meant when they spoke. These interpretations require a face value approach to scripture. Just because someone may hold a high position in the Church, does not give them a “pass” to interpret whatever they want. The bible requires checks and balances. It is God’s way of filtering out flaws of false revelation. This is why I am constantly asking for biblical witnesses to confirm and validate one’s interpretation, even if that interpretation is by a pope. But my request is treated as irrelevant, unnecessary, and useless. The skill of interpretation seems to be a foreign concept for many Catholics.


#365

The Catholic Church has always known the meaning of Scripture. The Catholic Church wrote the New Testament based upon the Teachings of Jesus Christ and discerned the Old Testament based on the same Teachings and the fact that Jesus used the Septuagint Old Testament.

The skill of interpretation seems to be a foreign concept for many Catholics.

The skill of exegesis is a foreign concept to Protestants.


#366

For that matter, how do you know if you have enough faith?


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