We must stick to the apostolic faith, the faith of the apostles, and not just retroactive and out-of-context readings from the Bible. As Peter wrote, "Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability." (2 Peter 3:14-17)
So Protestants believe they can sin and it’s all good, they will get to heaven?
I don’t know anyone who takes the attitude of "i get to take advantage of God, " though I’m sure you can find one. We are grateful to God for paying a price we could not pay. But those who do abuse God’s grace will certainly answer for it at the Beama Seat Judgement.
Dude, you are Catholic!
I am always bemused by Protestant who I encounter (less these days) and they ask, ‘Do you have an intimate relationship with Christ (are you saved, have you made Jesus your personal Savior…)?’
Catholic relationship with God is of the most intimate: we are Saved in Christ, by Christ, and for Christ (yeah, just ripped the Scriptures); we Live and Move in Christ… and we Break Bread, intimately Coming Together with our Savior… how deeper can a relationship get?
What Protestants miss is that we must Abide in Christ… it is not a “claim it and own it” deal (OSAS):
15:3 You are pruned already, by means of the word that I have spoken to you. 15:4 Make your home in me, as I make mine in you. As a branch cannot bear fruit all by itself, but must remain part of the vine, neither can you unless you remain in me. 15:5 I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me, with me in him, bears fruit in plenty; for cut off from me you can do nothing. (St. John)
Jesus, while speaking to the Twelve, is not giving them assurance of Salvation; rather, Jesus is emphasizing, ‘though you are clean (Saved) by the Word, you must still remain in Me so that I may Remain in you!’
That is the reason why Apostolic Teaching never ventures into the one time done deal scenario of Protestantism:
10:12 The man who thinks he is safe must be careful that he does not fall. (1 Corinthians)
5:19 When self-indulgence is at work the results are obvious: fornication, gross indecency and sexual irresponsibility; 5:20 idolatry and sorcery; feuds and wrangling, jealousy, bad temper and quarrels; disagreements, factions, 5:21 envy; drunkenness, orgies and similar things. I warn you now, as I warned you before: those who behave like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. 5:22 What the Spirit brings is very different: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, trustfulness, 5:23 gentleness and self-control. There can be no law against things like that, of course. 5:24 You cannot belong to Christ Jesus unless you crucify all self-indulgent passions and desires. (Galatians)
Sadly, Protestants believe that there’s nothing wrong they can do; that as Luther claimed, they can give into adultery 1000 times per day without losing their Salvation because it was a done deal–set in stone by Christ’s Sacrificial death.
What the Apostles Taught, as Christ Offered, is that our Salvation is Hidden in Christ! We Hope for that which is guaranteed in Christ; yet, we must:
1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 Consider him who endured such opposition from sinners, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart. (Hebrews 12)
Not once do the Apostles Teach: 'relax, done deal, all sins are forgiven, go do you!:
1:5 …7 But if we walk in the light, as he also is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 St. John)
But this “Love” and “forgiveness” must be done in Christ Jesus… otherwise is to no avail:
*5:46 For if you love those who love you, what right have you to claim any credit? Even the tax collectors[l] do as much, do they not? 5:47 And if you save your greetings for your brothers, are you doing anything exceptional? Even the pagans do as much, do they not? 5:48 You must therefore be perfect just as your heavenly Father is perfect. (St. Matthew)
The Call is to Perfection (Be Holy, for I AM HOLY).
St. Paul speaks of the works of the Law not of the works that Christians are Commanded to do by Christ; the works of the Law are all of the tenets of the Law (Ten Commandments and the Mosaic Law–do this, don’t do that). The works of the Law don’t Save; they only point to the sin that man commits by transgressing the Law.
However, Jesus is quite clear about who He will allow to associate themselves with Him:
7:21 ‘It is not those who say to me, “Lord, Lord”, who will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the person who does the will of my Father in heaven. 7:22 When the day comes many will say to me, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?” 7:23 Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!’ (St. Matthew)
These people were “secured” in “their salvation” because they were appropriating Christ’s Name to do wondrous things… Jesus rejected them because they relied on their own powers and accomplishments not on Him: ‘Obey the Father’s Will’ and the Father’s Will is that we Obey Jesus, Who Compels us to Love (St. Matthew 5 thru 7; 25:31-46; St. John 13:34-35).
Eternal Salvation is a Journey in Fellowship with Christ; yet, Christ states:
14:26 If any man comes to me without hating his father, mother, wife, children, brothers, sisters, yes and his own life too, he cannot be my disciple. 14:27 Anyone who does not carry his cross and come after me cannot be my disciple. (St. Luke)
Salvation is not a matter of knowing or quoting Scriptures; Salvation is not even a matter of “Believing” in God:
2:19 You believe in the one God – that is creditable enough, but the demons have the same belief, and they tremble with fear. 2:20 Do realise, you senseless man, that faith without good deeds is useless. (St. James)
Salvation is about Obedience to Christ, Who Command us to Be a doers of the Word not just hearers!
…it depends; some do; some hold a similar view to Catholic understanding; some believe that just claiming ‘salvation is mine’ they’ve achieved eternal security.
Responding to De_Maria
Okay you started off with Ephesians 3:10 that says the Church is to proclaim to the principalities and powers the “manifold wisdom of God.” Yes… I agree and I am one stone in that large body of believers called the Church who is universal in both Catholic and protestant views.
It is no lie to say that Jesus died for the sins of humanity. His work is a complete work. However, it should not be implied that all of humanity is covered by Christ blood. In order for that to happen, humanity would have to make covenant with Christ. The Hebrews 9:15 passage you quoted does not answer what you say it answers, however, Jesus as our high priest entered the holy of holies in heaven BECAUSE of what was purchased at the cross, and verse 12 says, “not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place ONCE for all (people) HAVING OBTAINED ETERNAL REDEMPTION.
But again, He entered the holy of holies on behalf of those who have covenant with Him and He obtained (past tense) our eternal redemption. It is finished!
De Maria, you like to spin what I say and impose ideas I never said.
In regards to my comments on how Roman Catholics believe that the sin debt is not quite settled at conversion is accurate whether you like it or not. If it were a settled matter at conversion and let’s say you have a conversion to Christ at 30 years old. Then since it is a settled matter, you could say, I am saved eternally and Christ will not bring up my sins ever. But Roman Catholics cannot say that, and even some post-Protestants cannot say that. Therefore my statement was right on the money.
You went on to say, “Notice that Jesus didn’t say, it is finished therefore you don’t have to do anything. He simply said, “it is finished.” What is finished? The part He had to play in our salvation.
I agree. We DO! have to do something once we hear and realize who Jesus Christ is. Once the Holy Spirit opens our eyes to the divine revelation that Jesus is the Christ, we are to BELIEVE IT.
Jn. 3:15, “ whoever BELIEVES in Him should not perish but have eternal life.”
Jn. 3:16 “For God so loved the world …. That whoever BELIEVES in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Jn. 3:36 says, “He who BELIEVES in the Son has everlasting life…”
Jn. 6:47, says, “Most assuredly, I say to you he who BELIEVES in Me has everlasting life.”
De_Mara you went on the quote from the famous “falling away” passage in Hebrews 10. This passage is debated in Protestant circles too. Many of my brothers have bought- in to the Catholic line using this passage along with Hebrews 6.
I agree believers can and do fall away. In this Hebrews 10 case, though the writer was not giving a real example, he was using a hypothetical one. The new Hebrew converts were under great persecution and tempted to leave their new faith behind to seek shelter under the legal religion of Judaism. They were tempted to return to the type and shadow kind of rituals and customs they left, rather than enjoy the realities of their new and higher spiritual journey. How could they go back to practice the Passover, for instance, when their own savior became the final Passover? It would be a huge insult! …
This is why the writer of Hebrews made such a big stink out of it when he said, “Heb 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he (the back-slider) be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Two things to notice in verses 29-31f. This potential Jewish back-slider, insulted His savior by counting the blood of the covenant BY WHICH HE WAS SANCTIFIED, a common thing …. He was not just any person, but one who was in covenant with His savior. The passage goes on to say, “The Lord will JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.” Who’s people? … His people! … What kind of judgment will that be?.. we have only 4 to choose in the New Testament, as I’ve mentioned in other post. 1. The judgment of the saved. 2. The judgment of the lost. 3. The judgment of Nations. 4. The judgment over sin (the cross.)
This potential back-sliding Hebrew, has covenant with Christ and Christ will judge him at the Judgment seat of Christ, a judgment of the saved.
Moving on… I said…
quote=“tgGodsway, post:12, topic:451313, full:true”]
When the apostle Paul says, we are justified apart from the works of the Law, meaning doing righteous things… notice that justification is not pending.
That’s because he’s referring to the Sacraments. It is in the Sacraments that those who have done good deeds are justified by making a proclamation of faith.
Sacraments?.. really, please give me chapter and verse to that in the context of Romans 3. Please show me directly that it says what you are saying in the above statement.
De_Maria, You impose ideas into the debate using scriptures that do not say what you are saying.
You went on to say…
True. But eternal salvation is something in which we must persist, or it can be lost: REALLY? BASED ON HEBREWS 6?
Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; TO RENEW THEM AGAIN TO WHAT?.. REPENTANC OR ETERNAL SALVATION? … seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
You should read verse 7 and 8. It’s a little parable that gives a little clue. Here, I will quote it for you. Heb 7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God;
8 but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
Burning a farm field is actually a farming technique that will save the soil. Many times a farmer will deliberately set his field on fire to allow the soil to replenish itself with anticipation of a future harvest.
A believer who “bears fruit” is useful and receives a blessing from his God.
But a believer who does not bear fruit is NOT useful to his master and no blessing will come from his God. He is rather thrown into the fire of refinement, (Jn. 10) so that all of the briars and thorns can be burned off, leaving a changed person for a future harvest.
I will have to stop here. It’s time to go to work…
De_Maria, may God’s rich and abundant Life meet you in your midnight hour.
“you do the best God does the rest”
Short and sweet here because I have to go to work… but your interpretation of abiding is wrong and I can prove it to any un bias lover of scripture.
blessings to you sir.
Well… which is it?
Catholics do believe all sin and guilt is washed away at conversion (normatively baptism). However, there’s no denying that men and women continue to sin after conversion, nor do our hearts instantly become perfectly pure. There are frequent admonitions in the new testament to believers to avoid sin and be clean of heart, and warning them that those who commit serious sin will not inherit the kingdom of God. Salvation is not a one-time decision, but a race we must run for the rest of our lives, to use Saint Paul’s metaphor, and one which we might not finish or which we might fall away from. Conversion is only the starting point of the journey, one in which we seek to conform ourselves to Christ. What is it to believe in Christ? It is not something done in a moment, and it’s not something passive.
And he said to all, “If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. (Luke 9:23)
And he called to him the multitude with his disciples, and said to them, “If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. (Mark 8:34)
Then Jesus told his disciples, “If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. (Matt 16:24)
It’s not, “If any man would come after me, follow me while I carry this cross for all of you.” Each man and woman that follows Christ must also take up his or her own cross.
I was scrolling down wondering when someone would get to James. He answered this exact same question two millennia ago, where this same false dichotomy was being presented, showing how the two relate to each other, not oppose each other.
Martin Luther screwed up big time over this issue, which is why he thought the book of James needed removal. He should have learned from this Scripture instead of trying to re-work it.
…did you missed a spot?:
7:24 but this one, because he remains for ever, can never lose his priesthood. 7:25 It follows, then, that his power to save is utterly certain, since he is living for ever to intercede for all who come to God through him. (Hebrews)
We must get with the program:
1:9 but if we acknowledge our sins, then God who is faithful and just will forgive our sins and purify us from everything that is wrong. (1 St. John)
…now, I hope you are sitting down for this one and that you have someone with you, I don’t want to have you get into a health issue while alone…:
2:2 he is the sacrifice that takes our sins away, and not only ours, but the whole world’s. (1 St. John)
He is the One Who takes away our sins!
Do you recall His intro by John the Baptist?:
1:29 The next day, seeing Jesus coming towards him, John said, ‘Look, there is the lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world. (St. John)
Do you get it now? He takes away not ‘that’s a done deal, man.’
[quote=“tgGodsway, post:29, topic:451313, full:true”]
Responding to De_Maria
Okay you started off with Ephesians 3:10 that says the Church is to proclaim to the principalities and powers the “manifold wisdom of God.” Yes… I agree
Then you have admitted that the Church Teaches the Wisdom of God. And the Church is the one that Teaches salvation by faith and works.
and I am one stone in that large body of believers called the Church who is universal in both Catholic and protestant views.
You deny Catholic Teaching so you are not “universal in both Catholic and protestant views”. Besides, I doubt that you have the wherewithal to keep up with all protestant views since there are over 20,000.
It is no lie to say that Jesus died for the sins of humanity.
It is the truth.
His work is a complete work.
Agreed. But we still have work to do.
However, it should not be implied that all of humanity is covered by Christ blood.
In order for that to happen, humanity would have to make covenant with Christ.
Humanity does have a covenant with Christ:
Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
The Hebrews 9:15 passage you quoted does not answer what you say it answers,
I think it does.
however, Jesus as our high priest entered the holy of holies in heaven BECAUSE of what was purchased at the cross, and verse 12 says, “not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place ONCE for all (people) HAVING OBTAINED ETERNAL REDEMPTION. But again, He entered the holy of holies on behalf of those who have covenant with Him and He obtained (past tense) our eternal redemption. It is finished!
Redemption is not salvation. Jesus Christ redeemed the sins committed in the Old Testament so that the disobedient could receive their eternal punishment and the righteous their eternal reward.
And He redeemed the sins committed in the New Testament in order that those who turn to Him will be saved, if they keep the Covenant of obedience to God.
1 Corinthians 6:8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Note that St. Paul is speaking to believers and warning them not to commit sins. He would hardly be saying this if they were saved by OSAS.
Jesus Christ finished His part in God’s plan of salvation. Now we need to keep our part. Obey God and avoid sin. And offer the once for all sacrifice which is the only remaining sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins.
De Maria, you like to spin what I say and impose ideas I never said.
I don’t think I’ve spun anything you’ve said, nor imposed ideas which you never said. But if you believe that statement, prove it with quotes.
Sorry you feel that way!
Rejecting God’s Word does not make right understanding.