Faith or works


#1

How can people believe that works are unimportant.

In Luke 14:27 Christ declared, “And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after Me, cannot be My disciple.”

Bearing our cross is work, and based on this scripture no amount of faith can connect us with Christ if we fail to do this work.


#2

Both.
Faith inspires works… and you do good things because you have the inspiration of God.


#3

[quote=tem2]How can people believe that works are unimportant.

[/quote]

Beats me. The Bible is pretty clear on that. One would have to disbelieve even the most obvious Bible teachings to get an interpretation other than “faith without works is useless.”

Alan


#4

[quote=Caldera]Both.
Faith inspires works… and you do good things because you have the inspiration of God.
[/quote]

check out James 2:18-- quite self explanatory


#5

Tem we believe in both and you know that:) But just a warning I will be following this thread,and if it is leading where I think it might be you can be sure I will call you down:nope:


#6

Both, must have faith plus works. We are told so often in scripture that we must have both, its not an either/or proposition.

Gracie


#7

“Faith alone” is linked to “once saved, always saved.”

Those who espouse OSAS are always easy to trip up over the question of sin. If you sin, you can lose salvation. If you cannot lose salvation, there is no such thing as sin (because there is no penalty for it.)

Hence the concept that somehow faith alone trumps all, and once saved you can do anything you like.


#8

Some create false dichotomies of faith and works. One HUGE misunderstanding concerns merit. Protestants and Catholics agree that no amount of good works will make us worthy of salvation. We do not merit salvation. Many Protestants, however, take this a step further. Since no work can merit salvation many (but not all) Protestants disregard the importance of works all together.

Another big confusion concerns good works and works of the law. Many fundamentalists and evangelicals fail to notice the difference between the two. Works of the law were never meant to merit salvation. They were meant to prove that it is impossible to merit salvation. Salvation in the Old Covenant and the New is based on faith. Abraham was commended for his faith. Rahab, who wasn’t even Jewish was saved for her faith. Works of the law were never a means to salvation. Good works are important to salvation. Notice that Abraham and Rahab did something with their faith. They had more than an intellectual faith, a simple belief in God. They put their faith to work.

Some who understand the difference between good works and works of the law believe that good works naturally come from faith. However, this is contrary to the many times in Scripture that Christians are warned to do good and not evil or risk their souls.

A great book on faith and works is Not By Faith Alone by Robert Sungenis. It’s alot of material and extensive but it is not verbose. I’ve read it three or four times and still don’t have it all down pat, but he lays it out there.

Personally, I think 1 John 3:23-24 sums it up nicely:

23 And this is his commandment, that we should believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. 24 All who keep his commandments abide in him, and he in them. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit which he has given.


#9

[quote=weddy]check out James 2:18-- quite self explanatory
[/quote]

Yes that is good, but Protestants focus so much on Romans that Romans 2:4-8 I think is more effective. Then they can’t use the arguement “oh, well he was speaking to the Jews”. Of course then they use the one, “Oh, he was building up for Romans 3 because our works are as filthy rags.”. But then he insults God who says our works are him working in us in Eph 3:20-21. It’s an endless web of excuses for what scripture says.

Blessings


#10

The title of the thread leads one to believe that there is a dichotomy. There is not. One must have faith for his works to be of value. But then one must respond to the grace given. One servant was given five talents, another 4 and another one. The ones who made a return on the talents were rewarded with greater responsibility. But note the one with one was given that one, as we are given our salvatoin at baptism. But he did nothing with it. He was cast out in the end as a wretch.

Blessings


#11

[quote=everlastingthur]Some create false dichotomies of faith and works. One HUGE misunderstanding concerns merit. Protestants and Catholics agree that no amount of good works will make us worthy of salvation. We do not merit salvation. Many Protestants, however, take this a step further. Since no work can merit salvation many (but not all) Protestants disregard the importance of works all together.

Another big confusion concerns good works and works of the law. Many fundamentalists and evangelicals fail to notice the difference between the two. Works of the law were never meant to merit salvation. They were meant to prove that it is impossible to merit salvation. Salvation in the Old Covenant and the New is based on faith. Abraham was commended for his faith. Rahab, who wasn’t even Jewish was saved for her faith. Works of the law were never a means to salvation. Good works are important to salvation. Notice that Abraham and Rahab did something with their faith. They had more than an intellectual faith, a simple belief in God. They put their faith to work.

Some who understand the difference between good works and works of the law believe that good works naturally come from faith. However, this is contrary to the many times in Scripture that Christians are warned to do good and not evil or risk their souls.

A great book on faith and works is Not By Faith Alone by Robert Sungenis. It’s alot of material and extensive but it is not verbose. I’ve read it three or four times and still don’t have it all down pat, but he lays it out there.

Personally, I think 1 John 3:23-24 sums it up nicely:

23 And this is his commandment, that we should believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. 24 All who keep his commandments abide in him, and he in them. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit which he has given.
[/quote]

:amen: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:


#12

[quote=tem2]How can people believe that works are unimportant.

In Luke 14:27 Christ declared, “And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after Me, cannot be My disciple.”

Bearing our cross is work, and based on this scripture no amount of faith can connect us with Christ if we fail to do this work.
[/quote]

Exactly. Which is why Martin Luther, the Doctor of Good Works, is such an important theologian in the history of Christianity, because he explained the proper basis on which we do good works.

In Christ,

Edwin (partly tongue in cheek, but only partly)


#13

Am I the only one who thinks this “faith and works” terminology sounds schizophrenic??

You might as well say something like “you need sugar and you need sweet”.


#14

[quote=neophyte]Am I the only one who thinks this “faith and works” terminology sounds schizophrenic??

You might as well say something like “you need sugar and you need sweet”.
[/quote]

It’s the theology of dichotomy. Can’t be works because it’s gotta be faith. Peter can’t be the Rock because Jesus is the Rock. Where it breaks down is scripture. For instance 1 Cor 3:11 says Christ is the foundation of the Church. Eph 2:20 says prophets and Apostles are the foundation of the Church. Contradiction? Not at all. It is through Christ working in them that the foundation was laid so as Eph 3:20 says it is the power of God working in them that is able to do far more. God works through his creatures so if Peter is the rock it is through Christ working in him. Another example is that John’s Gospel speaks of Christ as the light of the world, yet Christ also clearly states “you are the light of the world”. Once again no contradiction by the arguement above. This dichotomous thinking blinds them to the depth and richness of scripture.

Blessings


#15

It is very simple to me. If you talk the talk, then you must walk the walk. It does not make any sense if you claim to be a Christian but lead a very bad life. If you are a Christian, then you have high standards to live up to. Is it OK to say that you are saved and going to heaven, but you cheat on your wife and steal from your work. I don’t think so. It is not enough to just believe, you have to lead a good life too.


#16

Just accepting Jesus as our personal Savior is not enough to be saved. See Matthew 7:19-20 which states "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will know them by their fruits. “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who DOES the will of my Father who is in heaven.” – we must also DO good works (produce good fruit) in order to be saved.


#17

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