Faith


#1

Hello, im catholic and recently and my friend has been refering to me to alot of anti catholic websites, i try not to be rude so i just visit them, and ive ran into this jesus-is-savior.com/Books,%20Tracts%20&%20Preaching/Tracts/last_rights.htm its a silly comic type thing but it really got me thinking, frighted and questioning my faith, i mean it kinda makes sense to me and its been stuck in my head since ive read it , can someone from a catholic standpoint “analyze” this cartoon ? please help me make my faith stronger, much thanks.

:confused:


#2

[quote=davidmartinez]Hello, im catholic and recently and my friend has been refering to me to alot of anti catholic websites, i try not to be rude so i just visit them, and ive ran into this jesus-is-savior.com/Books,%20Tracts%20&%20Preaching/Tracts/last_rights.htm its a silly comic type thing but it really got me thinking, frighted and questioning my faith, i mean it kinda makes sense to me and its been stuck in my head since ive read it , can someone from a catholic standpoint “analyze” this cartoon ? please help me make my faith stronger, much thanks.

:confused:
[/quote]

I hope you now realize that it is foolish to visit anti-Catholic websites. Far better to tell your friend that if he is really your friend he will not tell you about such websites.

Your faith will be made stronger by prayer and reading only solidly Catholic books and websites.

You put your faith in danger by reading rubbish like the sites your “friend” has told you about.


#3

[quote=davidmartinez]Hello, im catholic and recently and my friend has been refering to me to alot of anti catholic websites, i try not to be rude so i just visit them, and ive ran into this jesus-is-savior.com/Books,%20Tracts%20&%20Preaching/Tracts/last_rights.htm its a silly comic type thing but it really got me thinking, frighted and questioning my faith, i mean it kinda makes sense to me and its been stuck in my head since ive read it , can someone from a catholic standpoint “analyze” this cartoon ? please help me make my faith stronger, much thanks.

:confused:
[/quote]

If your faith has been shaken by looking at a Jack Chick tract, then you need to get busy and get yourself educated in your faith.

Chick is the most conspicuous of all the rabidly anti-Catholic mad dogs. They say that his pot-shots at Catholicism are so pathetic that people have been forced to look at what the Church really teaches and have been converted.

If you get interested in poisonously stupid anti-Catholic literature, you might also enjoy Rebecca Brown (who is published by Chick).

For some laughs visit this thread – especially look at posts by “severinus.” forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=68467&highlight=chick


#4

hehe thanks alot my friends, ill take your advices :slight_smile: thank you


#5

This comic is full of strawman fallacies. It props up something Catholics don’t even believe and then refutes it.

For example, we don’t believe that we merit salvation because of works. We don’t merit salvation at all–it is a gift–100% grace. We respond to that grace with faith that is manefested with a changed life–works. Whenever Protestants quote Eph. 2:8 & 9, they fail to quote verse 10, which says that “For we are is workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.” In other words, this scripture is not saying that works don’t matter. It is saying that we can’t take credit for them. Our ability to do works of charity is part of the grace package. It is a gift from God.

The rest of the comic utilizes the same tactic.


#6

[quote=davidmartinez]Hello, im catholic and recently and my friend has been refering to me to alot of anti catholic websites, i try not to be rude so i just visit them, and ive ran into this jesus-is-savior.com/Books,%20Tracts%20&%20Preaching/Tracts/last_rights.htm its a silly comic type thing but it really got me thinking, frighted and questioning my faith, i mean it kinda makes sense to me and its been stuck in my head since ive read it , can someone from a catholic standpoint “analyze” this cartoon ? please help me make my faith stronger, much thanks.

:confused:
[/quote]

Oh David, don’t worry about Jack Chick tracts. I say ignore them. But, if he bothers you, don’t feel afraid to come to us, we’ll always be happy to straighten things out. Just, be careful about putting your faith into jeopardy too easily.

There is nothing of substance until the 9th row of comics. That’s where God quotes Ephesians 2:8-9. There is nothing here Catholics deny-- Scripture is inspired.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; 9 it is not from works, so no one may boast.

What does this say? It is by *grace *that you have been saved, not works. We, of course, believe in salvation by grace alone. When it says, ‘it is not from works,’ that’s very much elementary because only God’s grace can save us. They try to tie ‘though faith’ to the ‘not from works,’ but that’s silly because ‘through faith’ modifies grace, it isn’t the essential part of the sentence, as grace is. ‘Though faith,’ modifies how we receive God’s grace, but that’s all. Check James 2 to figure out what role works play:

17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.

24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route? 26 For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Ironically, two cartoon boxes earlier it quotes Matt 25, the Last Judgment scene. Read it carefully. Jesus clearly denies salvation to those who failed to do good works.

41 17 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ 44 18 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ 45 He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ 46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Now, the 10th box. Praying to Mary. Praying is not equal to worship, no matter what he tells you. It would be wrong to worship Mary, but it is not wrong to pray to her. Worshipping Mary would be idolatry, praying to her is just asking her for her help.

The other thing they need to wrap their minds around is reverencing objects that are close to God. In the OT every component of the Temple was consecrated or anointed to God’s usage. Likewise, we do so with our altars, chalices, ciborium. So, with the statues, we treat them with respect, the respect accorded to them because they represent the saints, or God. Oh, and, note that God had the Jews make ‘graven images,’ cheribum, on the Ark of the Covenant.


#7

11th row. “John, where do you find the Mass in Scripture, it doesn’t exist.” Total nonsense. The Last Supper scene and the Bread of Life dialogue in John 6 clearly set up the central act of worship, the offering of the Eucharist. Check these Scott Hahn programs about the Mass and the Apocaplyse (Book of Revelation).

12th row. Misrepresentation of Catholic belief. Catholics believe that the Eucharist is the re-presenting (making present) of the same sacrifice of Cavalry. We don’t resacrifice Christ, nor do we claim that we do. Read this page in the Catechism, read it completely, and you’ll have your questions answered. The Eucharist is about applying the fruits of Christ’s one sacrifice, not resacrificng him. Oh and, the interpretation of “it is finished,” is rather facile. What was finished? The sacrifice? But the sacrifice meant nothing until Christ was resurrected. He needs to dig deeper. Scott Hahn has a different idea about what that means.

13th row, misrepresentation of baptism.

1 Peter 3:21

20 who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. 21 This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God 7 for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ

John 1:33

33 I did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘On whomever you see the Spirit come down and remain, he is the one who will baptize with the holy Spirit.’

Matt 28:19

19 Go, therefore, 12 and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,

How can you baptize people in the Spirit and in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit without it being a water baptism which confers the baptism from the Holy Spirit? As the passage from 1 Peter suggests, water baptism confers real grace, which John the Baptist told us Jesus would do for us. The 1 John 1:17 quote from the cartoon is true, but it doesn’t speak to how salvation is applied to us. I have to go, but I’ll tackle cartoon on line 15 quickly. “No man has the power to do that.” Nonsense. Tell Jack Chick to argue with Christ Himself on that one.

“As the Father has sent me, even so I send you. . . . Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained” (John 20:21–23).


#8

Practical advice in light of the fact that he is going to continue to bomb you with links: Tell him that you are no longer going to visit his links, but if he has a specific question or objection IN HIS OWN WORDS that you will answer them. And that you will listen to ONE OBJECTION AT A TIME as opposed to every objection out there on one list.

Scott


#9

[quote=davidmartinez] …but it really got me thinking, frighted and questioning my faith, i mean it kinda makes sense to me and its been stuck in my head since ive read it
[/quote]

Jack Chick tracts are designed to ‘hook’ Catholics who are not well-taught in why the Church teaches what it does.

One thing to remember is that the Catholic Church cannot be disproved by quoting out of context from Scripture. Protestants have been trying to do so for centuries.

The quote from Ephesians 2:8-9
"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so no one may boast."

Verse 10 goes on to say:“For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.”

Christians are expected to do good works simply because they are Christians. The one flows from the other. The Church does not teach that good works earn salvation. It teaches that we can live our whole life doing good works, and still go to hell if we die in a state of unrepented mortal sin.

Praying to Mary (or the saints) is interpreted as an act or worship by some non-Catholic Christians. In fact, it is a simple petition, asking Mary to pray with us for a particular reason, much the way we would ask someone in our Parish or community to pray on our behalf. For that matter, Catholics are the ones who call Mary “blessed” for all ages.

Graven images in Exodus, refers to idols that were worshipped by the people as “gods”. We do not worship statues, nor to we pray to them.

For Catholics, the highest form of Worship is the Mass. Since Protestants rejected the Mass many centuries ago they see praying and singing as worship.

The name/word Mass may not be mentioned in Scripture, but the act of Worship that has come to be called the Mass is there is various forms throughout both the Old and the New Testament.

There is a book How Christ Said the First Mass by Fr James Meagher that shows how Catholic liturgical traditions go back to the time of Adam, and how the Mass sums up the entire OT worship right up to the time of Christ.

Fr Meagher spells out in great detail the reasons he has for believing the Mass was formed virtually complete from the time of the death of St Peter, and that the Apostles received it almost that way from Jesus Himself. Essentially the same Mass we have today.

The Letter to the Hebrews was reminding them of the daily sacrifice offered by the levitical priesthood which did not have the power to remit sins. The author is telling them that Jesus offered a single sacrifice in atonement of the sins of the whole human race.


#10

Thanks for those posts scott :slight_smile: very informative


#11

Using the quote of Mark 2:7 about how only God can forgive sins is rather ironic when you consider that it was an accusation against Jesus by the Pharisees.

1 John 1:9 “If we acknowledge our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from every wrongdoing” is true but is taken out of context in the tract. It doesn’t specify confession to a priest but you must realise that John was writing to a Christian community so he would not have needed to spell out what was already accepted practise.

Rather, he seems to be rebuking those who seem to regard themselves as ‘saved’ once and for all by the mere fact of their baptism.


#12

Is there any Sacrament more clearly described in the Bible, and yet is more overlooked than the anointing of the sick??? Simply look at James 5:14-15

Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord, and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven.

David, what you need to do is tackle this, but only one point at a time. After you show him the Anointing of the Sick, make him admit that this is obviously what the Bible teaches and what the Catholic Church teaches. Ask him why does his church deny this Biblical teaching.

Only then, after he admits that you may be right do you tackle the next point. There are some very good points already posted on this thread. Once you blasted holes in several of his points, and he has realized that you may be right, he’ll start regretting ever showing you these tracts.

David, it’s &%$%# like this that has strengthened my faith as much as any other one thing, for it made me examine why I follow our Mother Church. What I found was a virtual treasure trove of faith and love for all of us sinners. She is the bride of Christ for a reason, and He promised He would be faithful to her forever.

Take Care and God Bless,

Notworthy


#13

Accepting Jesus Christ as their “personal Saviour,” as the last cartoon in the tract depicts, shows the Protestant belief in the “assurance of salvation” which comes from being “born again”. (John 3:3)

While we have all been redeemed by Christ’s sacrifice on the cross, salvation is not guaranteed. In Matthew 7:21 Jesus says: ‘Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord” shall enter the kingdom of heaven’ "

Jesus also told us in Matthew 24:13 “He who endures to the end will be saved”

St Paul tells us in Philippians 2:12, “Work out your salvation with fear and trembling in your hearts.”


#14

(davidmartinez) Hello, im catholic and recently and my friend has been refering to me to alot of anti catholic websites, i try not to be rude so i just visit them…

(jmt) Hello, David, I’m also catholic and I have read a lot of anti-catholic literature - O. C. Lambert’s book, Catholicism Against Itself, J. M. Carroll’s The Trail of Blood, Loraine Boettner’s book, Roman Catholicism, and Ellen G. White’s, * The Great Controversy* to name just a few - yet I remain a firmly and fully convinced Catholic…I’m here to tell you, if you’re interested in God’s Revealed Truth then study for understanding the teachings of the Catholic Faith. Learn what we really believe and why we believe it. Then, when you encounter anticatholic propaganda you will see it for what it is…the rantings of “the ignorant and unstable” who distort God’s Word to their own destruction. (2Pt 3:16)

(davidmartinez) …ive ran into this…its a silly comic type thing but it really got me thinking, frighted and questioning my faith, i mean it kinda makes sense to me and its been stuck in my head since ive read it…

(jmt) What exactly did you understand the comic strip to teach that caused you to question the Catholic Faith? I think you will find - as RobNY and everyone else who has answered your post has wonderfully explained - that the comic strip presents a caricature of Catholic teaching which is in itself dishonest and the bearing of false witness - ie., “lying” - for which “Jack Chick”, if he knows better (and he should know better) will answer for before God on the Last Day.

Mr Chick should be aware that “all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” (Rev 21:8)

May the Lord rebuke him. (Jude 1:9)

(davidmartinez) …Can someone from a catholic standpoint “analyze” this cartoon ? please help me make my faith stronger, much thanks,

(jmt) I’d be interested to know 1) what doubts did the comic strip raise in your mind and 2) what arguments presented here have settled your doubts?

Are there still questions in your mind that needs to be addressed?

Keep the Faith
jmt


#15

[quote=davidmartinez]Hello, im catholic and recently and my friend has been refering to me to alot of anti catholic websites, i try not to be rude so i just visit them, and ive ran into this jesus-is-savior.com/Books,%20Tracts%20&%20Preaching/Tracts/last_rights.htm its a silly comic type thing but it really got me thinking, frighted and questioning my faith, i mean it kinda makes sense to me and its been stuck in my head since ive read it , can someone from a catholic standpoint “analyze” this cartoon ? please help me make my faith stronger, much thanks.

:confused:
[/quote]

Oh nooooo! Please stay far from Jack Chick comic books. They are dishonest and absurd. Even Protestants denounce him. See more here:

Jack Chick Lies: The real Alberto Rivera
ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ343.HTM

Now, what specific theological issue are you having? Salvation wy by works and not by grace through faith? Catholicism rejects it. Idolatry? Catholicism rejets it. Which lie that Jack Chick spreads would you like to discuss first?


#16

heh jmt, and everyone else asking in all honestly, all my questions were answered, i didnt expect box by box to be answered and im very thank full for that :slight_smile: , right now like many have suggested, im going to start learning more about my faith, and if i have any more questions i wont hesitate to look or post here to find an answer, thank you all :slight_smile:
and itsjustdave1988 i dont think it would be fair for me to ask any more questions since im guilty of not having enough education about my faith to start with, after i learn more, i will ask.


#17

Hi davidmartinez,

Please allow me as a Protestant, studying Catholicism, to encourage you in ways you might not have thought of.

Christianity is constantly under attack whether it is from secular sources or sadly within. One could search various websites and books about our salvation and come up with multiple answers. This leads one scratching their head in discontent and confusion.

Dig into the scriptures with a deep need not for the milk but for the meat of it. Truly salvation is so much more than reciting a prayer and going through life thinking you are saved. Salvation is much more than going through life believing good works will save you. One brownie point for the Catholic Church is that they have never diverted from what constitutes salvation. Currently I see it as a beautiful balancing act between a relationship with Jesus and works.

As someone on here through a PM put it to me, summarizing here, your journey into the Faith is yours alone. It is not your friends, your enemies, nor your relatives. Please remember one thing, things that make sense do not always constitute as truth. The resurrection of Jesus is a great example. It doesn’t make sense but it is the truth.

God Bless you and keep you and I pray that he gives you more understanding about him today than you had yesterday.

:slight_smile: Melissa


#18

David,

You’ve come the right place. Catholic Answers does an outstanding job.

Here’s some links to get you started learning our Holy Religion…

Read God’s Holy Bible everyday. I recommend getting Presentation Ministries’ *One Bread, One Body *sent to your email. Here’s s today’s issue:
presentationministries.com/obob/obob.asp

Here’s how to sign up to get it sent to your email everyday…
presentationministries.com/general/emailList.asp

I also recommend simply reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church from cover-to-cover. A Protestant friend of mine recently did and was amazed at how clear and Scripturally well-supported the teaching was.

Here’s an online version with search engine:
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

Knights of Columbus offers free online classes here:
kofc.org/un/publications/cis/courses/HARTCOURSES/index.cfm
kofc.org/un/publications/cis/courses/CISCOURSES/index.cfm

Or you can simply download their course material here:
kofc.org/un/publications/cis/publications/hart/index.cfm
kofc.org/un/publications/cis/publications/veritas/index.cfm

Catholics United for Faith also has some very well researched tracts here:
cuf.org/Faithfacts/index.asp

For tracts on countering anti-Catholic claims…
**Catholic Answers
**catholic.com/


#19

The funniest thing about the Chick tracts are when they give you a prayer to pray “word for word” Then say, “talk to God in prayer (in your own words)” immediatly after that. In this one, the comic strip warns that “Baptism does not make you Christian” but at the end they say you must “be bapisted, worship, blah blah blah.”

Even at my weekest moments of being a CINO, I would have never fallen for the Chick garbage. I can’t believe anyone else could either. Original poster, please, pray pray pray! There’s not a single valid argument in that trash.


#20

RobNY,
It amuses me no end that the only time the Bible uses the words “faith alone” is to say that it does not justify us. No wonder Luther resorted to calling the book of James an “epistle of straw.”


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