[quote="Tradycja, post:4, topic:179972"]
I can't believe someone who lists themselves as Catholic on this thread said "That's great!" That's terrible! :eek:
Yes, the Orthodox have valid sacraments, but those sacraments are not beneficial unto salvation since they are sacraments outside the Church. (Now there may be individual Orthodox Christians who were baptized as children in the Orthodox Church and never embraced any heretical or schismatic position that can receive benefit from those sacraments, but this would not apply to a Catholic who leaves to become "Orthodox")
The true Orthodox are the Eastern Catholic Churches.
Here are statements regarding sacraments outside the Church not being beneficial untio salvation:
“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that** only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier*. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.”** (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.) ***
Universal Ordinary Magisterium:
The Sacraments, which some people keep and use outside the unity of Christ, are able to preserve the appearance of piety; but the invisible and spiritual virtue of true piety cannot abide there any more than feeling can remain in an amputated part of your body. (Pope Leo XIII: "Exima Nos Laetitia")
The Church is built on the Rock of Peter, and he who eats the Lamb outside this holy dwelling has no part with God. (Pius IX: "Multis Gravibus”)
Against these experienced sophists the people must be taught that the profession of the Catholic faith is uniquely true, as the apostle proclaims: one Lord, one faith, one baptism. etc ...
(Traditi Humilitati- On his program for the Pontificate- Encyclical of Pope Pius VIII – May 1829)
11. In the words of St. Leo, who continues speaking about the Holy See of Peter: "It is necessary that the Church throughout the world be united and cleave to the center of Catholic unity and ecclesiastical communion, etc. ...
(Commissum Dicinitus- On Church and State- Encyclical of Pope Gregory XVI- May 17, 1835)
5 "Whoever eats the lamb outside of this house is an impious person."
(Singulari Quidem- On the Church in Austria- Encyclical of Pope Pius IX- March 17, 1856)
Thank you for being so frank and honest in your opinion.
It is not as if most of the readers here have not seen these quotes, but it is (I suppose) worthwhile to be reminded.
However, this "red in tooth and claw" approach is hardly conducive to better relations between the churches, and sadly it makes the Orthodox position of not sharing communion with Latin Catholics seem all the more realistic and justified.
Although it is noteworthy that no 'modern' Pope has repudiated these harsh judgments of their predecessors, I do appreciate the modern approach a lot more.
[quote="Tradycja, post:4, topic:179972"]
*] Yes, the Orthodox have valid sacraments,
*]but those sacraments are not beneficial unto salvation since they are sacraments outside the Church.
Which looks for all the world like a complete contradiction!
If a sacrament is valid (as per your church, apparently the Orthodox sacraments are) the Holy Spirit is at work in it!
Are you trying to maintain that the Holy Spirit of God is present but ineffective?
Let us take the Eucharist, for example ...
If the Holy Eucharist is a true sacrament, does that mean that Christ is truly present or not?
What can this mean "valid sacraments" but "not beneficial" ? Is Christ divided? Are there two cosmic eternal Divine Liturgies?
"No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one,*** even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ*, **can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.”*** (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441).
This reminds me of another important quote "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You lock the kingdom of heaven before human beings. You do not enter yourselves, nor do you allow entrance to those trying to enter.***" Matt 23:13