Father greater than the Son


#1

We know that the 3 Persons of the Holy Trinity are the one God. Jesus said that He and the Father are one and thus so is the Spirit He gave us after resurrecting. I assume that the passages which I refer to implicitly are among those that reveal the trinitarian God. If so, what is the meaning of the Father being greater than the Son?

TIA


#2

The Father Son and Holy Spirit are equal. Neither is subject to the other. I know it is a hard concept to grasp, especially if you are new to Catholicism…but it is a Mystery…it will never be explained, and if someone tells you they have the answer, they are lying. All three are coequals and all three are the same…

[quote=Augustine]We know that the 3 Persons of the Holy Trinity are the one God. Jesus said that He and the Father are one and thus so is the Spirit He gave us after resurrecting. I assume that the passages which I refer to implicitly are among those that reveal the trinitarian God. If so, what is the meaning of the Father being greater than the Son?

TIA
[/quote]


#3

[quote=Augustine]We know that the 3 Persons of the Holy Trinity are the one God. Jesus said that He and the Father are one and thus so is the Spirit He gave us after resurrecting. I assume that the passages which I refer to implicitly are among those that reveal the trinitarian God. If so, what is the meaning of the Father being greater than the Son?

TIA
[/quote]

For one, when Christ was on Earth, He humbled Himself by becoming fully human. God the Father was therefore greater than Christ’s humanity.


#4

For one, when Christ was on Earth, He humbled Himself by becoming fully human. God the Father was therefore greater than Christ’s humanity.

I totally agree on this. The Divinity of Christ didn’t add up because of humanity he assumed. His human nature is human, His Divine nature God. As to his Human nature, he is inferior to the Father, as to His Divine nature He is equal to the Father. But the two natures are perfectly united and one (homosious), but not to add to his Divinity.

Pio


#5

Subordinationism

A doctrine that assigns an inferiority of being, status, or role to the Son or Holy Spirit within the Trinity. Condemned by numerous church councils, this doctrine has continued in one form or another throughout the history of the church. In the early centuries, the struggle to understand the human and divine natures of Christ often led to placing the Son in a secondary position to the Father …

The Athanasian Creed declared that in the Trinity “none is before or after another: none is greater or less than another” …


#6

Rationalist critics lay great stress upon the text: “The Father is greater than I” (14:28). They argue that this suffices to establish that the author of the Gospel held subordinationist views, and they expound in this sense certain texts in which the Son declares His dependence on the Father (5:19; 8:28). In point of fact the doctrine of the Incarnation involves that, in regard of His Human Nature, the Son should be less than the Father. No argument against Catholic doctrine can, therefore, be drawn from this text. So too, the passages referring to the dependence of the Son upon the Father do but express what is essential to Trinitarian dogma, namely, that the Father is the supreme source from Whom the Divine Nature and perfections flow to the Son.

The Blessed Trinity, The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume XV


#7

[quote=dumspirospero]… especially if you are new to Catholicism…
[/quote]

I’m a re-revert craddle Catholic, but I’m always willing to strengthen my Faith. I’m a very proud sinner. :o


#8

The reference is very good. I’m reading the entry on the Incarnation (newadvent.org/cathen/07706b.htm) and I’ll reflect on it.

Many thanks to y’all.


#9

I probably won’t say anything that hasn’t been said but here is my little contribution.

It is true that Christ has two natures. One human and one Divine (diety). In His humanity He was dependant on His Father. The interesting thing is to recognize that Jesus says His Father is greater than He is, but He never says that His Father is better. We might say that president Bush is greater than we are, and by virtue of his office he is. But no one would say that he is better than we are.

There is a difference.

Philipians 2 is a good chapter to read concerning Jesus’ humility and ‘emptying’ of Himself for us. Thanks


#10

[quote=Augustine]We know that the 3 Persons of the Holy Trinity are the one God. Jesus said that He and the Father are one and thus so is the Spirit He gave us after resurrecting. I assume that the passages which I refer to implicitly are among those that reveal the trinitarian God. If so, what is the meaning of the Father being greater than the Son?

TIA
[/quote]

Hi Augustine,
Great intrigue. I look to Genesis, where we are made in His image. I see the Will, Word and Spirit; all being almighty. Now we possess this trinity. Which would you say is the greater, though all being one. Obviously the word does not speak until the will directs and the spirit is sent out at the time of the word. Remember the Father has given all authority to the eternal Word, Jesus Christ, except for times and seasons. There is order, will word and spirit. As I read somewhere, the Spirit is the executor of the Will at the time of the Word.
Also be very cautious because the bible states we will be held liable for every idle word. Think, we are sending our spirit out and if it is not in love we are fighting against God. ‘I hate’ him, is to send your spirit out on an errand of hate, for the spirit obeys the word. God’s protection for us is the weakness of our spirit . How harmful are out intentions though?
Christ be with youhttp://forums.catholic.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
walk in love
edwinG


#11

[quote=Augustine]We know that the 3 Persons of the Holy Trinity are the one God. Jesus said that He and the Father are one and thus so is the Spirit He gave us after resurrecting. I assume that the passages which I refer to implicitly are among those that reveal the trinitarian God. If so, what is the meaning of the Father being greater than the Son?

TIA
[/quote]

Father and Son, being one in nature along with the Holy Spirit are co-equal and co-eternal. Thus, if Jesus at one time said the Father was greater than Him, it simply is an expression of Jesus’ humility in relation to the Father and to serve as an example for us to truly humble ourselves before the Father.

Gerry :slight_smile:


#12

When you reject the binding interpretations of the historic Faith there is no doctrine that is safe. Moreover, the history of doctrine shows that the rejection of Marian doctrine leads sooner or later to the rejection of the Christological and Trinitarian affirmations. It is Marian doctrine and devotion that preserved the truth of the Trinity. When the Christian believer sees the biblical portrait of Mary as Daughter of the Father, Mother of the Son and Spouse of the Holy Spirit, he grasps forcefully the distinctions between the Three Persons. The doctrine of the Trinity becomes a reality for him.
On the flip side, the idea of “Jesus alone” with no reference to Mary leads to a focus on God only as Father (Jehovah’s Witnesses and some Fundamentalists) or a focus on Jesus that excludes the Father and the Holy Spirit (most Fundamentalists) or an exclusive focus on the Holy Spirit (most Charismatics/ Pentecostals).
With a healthy Marian devotion comes an authentic understanding and a conscious grasp of the doctrine of the Trinity. Marian doctrine is equally important for Christology. For instance, the declaration that Mary is the Mother of God said two clear things about Christ: He is one Person, a divine Person; He is a human being because His mother is human. Once the declaration of Mary’s Divine Maternity was rejected the next step was to reject the affirmation that Christ is a divine Person.
mariology.com/sections/introduction.html

kepha1


#13

[quote=kepha1]When you reject the binding interpretations of the historic Faith there is no doctrine that is safe. Moreover, the history of doctrine shows that the rejection of Marian doctrine leads sooner or later to the rejection of the Christological and Trinitarian affirmations. It is Marian doctrine and devotion that preserved the truth of the Trinity. When the Christian believer sees the biblical portrait of Mary as Daughter of the Father, Mother of the Son and Spouse of the Holy Spirit, he grasps forcefully the distinctions between the Three Persons. The doctrine of the Trinity becomes a reality for him.
On the flip side, the idea of “Jesus alone” with no reference to Mary leads to a focus on God only as Father (Jehovah’s Witnesses and some Fundamentalists) or a focus on Jesus that excludes the Father and the Holy Spirit (most Fundamentalists) or an exclusive focus on the Holy Spirit (most Charismatics/ Pentecostals).
With a healthy Marian devotion comes an authentic understanding and a conscious grasp of the doctrine of the Trinity. Marian doctrine is equally important for Christology. For instance, the declaration that Mary is the Mother of God said two clear things about Christ: He is one Person, a divine Person; He is a human being because His mother is human. Once the declaration of Mary’s Divine Maternity was rejected the next step was to reject the affirmation that Christ is a divine Person.
mariology.com/sections/introduction.html

kepha1
[/quote]

You brought up an excellent point that protestant just don’t get with Mary that many of beleifs are tied into her for Christological reasons and they elevate Christ role in salvation more than they do her. By elevating Mary you elevate Christ. I guess it would be very easy to see Christ in a less full way if you don’t realize the role Mary played in salvation history.
The catholic church has worked out the Trinity for everybody for centureis so you don’t have to mess around with it and recreate an old heresey some other fool has already brought up centureis before. Please don’t take your Bible and try to figure out everything by yourself than your going to start another dopey church like the Oneness pentacostlas. Take away the catholic creeds and it gets weird really quick.


#14

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