Fatima and "Traditional" Catholicism

Hello to all, and first time poster here. I am a Traditional Catholic man (a “RadTrad” as described by some) who has always been loyal to the Magesterium and at the same time drawn to the Tridentine liturgy since childhood (even though I was born long after Vatican II and the implementation fo the Novus Ordo). What I want to discuss is the automatic equation/assumption that being a Traditional Catholic means one MUST accept/be devoted to Fatima. As any knowledgeable Catholic knows, ALL Marian apparitions are classified as “Private Revelation”. And as it stands, I am absolutely devoted to several Marian apparitions (Guadalupe chiefly among them), whose previous messages have in fact formed the basis for my understanding of Fatima…and suffice it to say, I do not believe it was a miracle or an apparition.

We can discuss the “why’s” of this, which I am happy to do (respectfully ONLY…since I have found that on other forums the moment I suggest I don’t believe in Fatima I get nothing but rage thrown at me). But my question for the group is this: are there ANY other Traditional Catholics out there who also openly state they do not believe in Fatima? I guess I personally am just tired of this being a litmus test for who is or is not a Traditional Catholic. Thank you and God bless.

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I’ve never heard of such a group, though I’m not sure I’d say I’m an expert. Now, not all the trads I know are crazy about Fatima. I’m personally not (though it’s partly out of ignorance of the whole story), but I don’t not believe in Fatima. The only “litmus test” I’ve heard or seen among traditional Catholics is love for the TLM, and that’s it.

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I have problems with Fatima, but haven’t rejected it totally.

But your first statement says how to handle it, it’s private revelation and not necessary to believe.

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News to me. From what I’m seeing, most Trads do accept it and refer to it a lot… doesn’t change the fact that it is indeed a private revelation, and everyone accepts it as such.

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The only “litmus test” I’ve heard or seen among traditional Catholics is love for the TLM, and that’s it.

One would think! That’s exactly how I feel as well. But no, go to ANY supposed “discussion” on Fatima (which is usually about the so-called “secrets” and how horrible the current church is etc) and if you so much as bring up the absence of any documentation of the supposed “revelations” up to 1941 you will be called anything from a closet-protestant to whatever else they have in the arsenal. Not suggesting you do this, just saying…I have experienced it to the point I just don’t comment anymore. But thank you for your comment.

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I know what you mean just by seeing the frequency of references to Fatima among the traditionalists. I consider myself a burgeoning traditionalist, and I do personally accept Fatima but it is private revelation in the end. I also like La Salette and Pontmain.

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I will draw hostile fire for this, but some have become Fatimaniacs.

It’s a private devotion for good grief!

Someone else is devoted to it? Great! I have a special connection to Saint Bernadette and Lourdes.

It’s the obsession and insistence that bug me.

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That’s sad. I rather like the Fatima prayer for the rosary. It’s sad that discussion over the apparition could be soured like that.

Nah, I know you weren’t. Besides, I have bigger fish to fry in the Church than trying to mandate belief in something which by definition is only an option to believe.

:+1:

I will draw hostile fire for this, but some have become Fatimaniacs

How DARE you! The polite term is Fatimanatic:stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

And yes, I would never want to take away anyone’s devotion to the BVM…THAT in itself is a wonderful thing. As you say, it’s the insistence on believing it as a criterion for being a Traditional Catholic, as well as the obsession with the so-called “messages”, which I feel do nothing but breed columny and conspiracy towards the church.

I’ve studied this, the timeline has gotten to me too.

I do believe the message of Fatima may have been made available to the public earlier than 1941. It’s all an intricate situation. I think once I studied it and some of the message was revealed per 1929-31 but does that drastically change things? I am not sure it mentioned that “strange light” over Europe, so yes, this is what we are talking about. The crux of the matter. It really needs clarification. It needs a bit of a timeline.

So, I agree, there are some problematic aspects. Also, with our taking the word of only Lucia since Jacinta and Francisco passed away.

On the other side, the Miracle of the Sun, sometimes, I think, too bad CNN (or name whatever source you wish to) were there. So, I wrestle with the Miracle of the Sun though there are many witnesses and

Not to forget by any means, His Holiness, Pope Pius XII witnessed it two times or more walking in the Vatican gardens.

Pope Pius XII seemed to be an extremely honorable, devout and holy man.

So, there is certainly a lot to ponder.

ADDENDUM: I found a web reference saying the Vatican declared the Miracle of the Sun on October 13, 1930. So, obviously, the Vatican did come out with some information on the event well before 1941.

If they ever opened up the Vatican vaults, which I thought they were going to do, perhaps, there would be some more useful info to find out about all of this.

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If you don’t believe in it, then why are you going to a discussion on it?
Such discussions are generally for those who believe. They are not open forums for skeptics to come and bring their doubts. People do not attend such sessions to have apologetics arguments.

It’s fine if you don’t believe in it. . . .

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Well, see this is not your call to make…is it? As a Catholic man, if there is an open forum asking for input on the supposed “3rd secret of Fatima”, it’s my right to state an opinion on the topic (i.e., . . . that people should focus instead on the church fathers, the gospels, and other approved apparitions. . . .

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I never heard of such a thing.

You raise some SERIOUSLY interesting points. First, we absolutely BOTH agree about His Holiness Pope Pius XII (Santo Subito!!!) I cannot tell you how much I admire him (drop this in the “don’t get me started” category, because I could talk for hours here). I have read on this topic extensively, and do believe that he really WANTED to believe in the miracle at the church’s darkest hour of the last 100 years. However, regarding the supposed miracle itself, it is actually a meteorological event which happens in nature…and has happened before and subsequent to Fatima (and it has been captured/recorded recently).

But once again, I really don’t want to go into the specifics of Fatima on this thread as it wasn’t the topic. I’m simply glad to see from most of these posts that there ARE many Traditional Catholics who at the least allow for personal interpretation of said miracle as opposed to any “disqualifier”. And thanks for your input there.

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As a kid I used to do the thing you are absolutely NOT to do… stare at the sun. I can say that when you do this, it will seem to “spin” in different colors and jump around, much like the description of the miracle of the sun.

I’m a little hesitant to subscribe to the miracle for that reason.

Please don’t go and stare at the sun. The miracle is that I’m not blind.

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What does “tolerating a difference of opinion” have to do with it? I don’t care what your opinion is on Fatima. We have people post here all the time who don’t believe in approved Marian apparitions; it’s no big deal. The Church says no one is required to believe in them.

You’re the one complaining that you go to discussions about Fatima and then have traditionalists act hostile to you and you wish you could be a traditionalist without believing in Fatima.

So, I’m suggesting a way for you to solve your problem: don’t participate in discussions about Fatima.

I presumed you meant discussions at your traditionalist church, not a thread on CAF. CAF is not a purely traditionalist group and we have all kinds of discussions and opinions here.

Also, you may want to check the FAQ rules on civility in posting.

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Im a traditionalist. . . .

Fatima forms no part of my devotions. I don’t reject it, I simply find that everything a faithful Catholic needs was already there before Fatima.

I don’t understand why Popes who accepted Fatima refused to publish the Third Secret at the time the seers said it should be published, and I do understand why this fact alone is enough to make one wonder if something else has still been kept back.

However, with all that said, it is a private revelation not required for salvation.

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Me too, it’s one of my favourites.

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Catholic apologetics is discussed in this forum (meaning the whole forum, all subforums), all I can come up with is, is someone intimating that this is the wrong area for this discussion? That I can see. but I would not be sure, where this discussion would then go.

Per the Guardian article posted above:

I have seen what are called “sun dogs” in the depth of winter, Jan. Feb. in Minnesota when it was very cold. I certainly do not see that as similar to the miracle of the sun or dancing of the sun. And we are talking about, per Fatima, Portugal in mid-October. I’m sure, Portugal is a fairly sunny place and I gather somewhat mild in the winter and right now, Lisbon’s weather appears to be pretty nice.

Though, these “sun dogs” may well be seen as far South in Portugal in October, that starts to become a meteorological question.

Anyway, I don’t care to get caught up in this. I’m just saying, maybe this should go into an apologetics area rather than, an area, one might call more of a “worship” area… but I don’t know, that’s for the Mods themselves to answer.

Here is the specific “Apologetics” subforum:

https://forums.catholic.com/c/apologetics

Maybe this is where the poster above had an objection that this is not placed in the apologetics forum vs. the Traditional Catholicism forum.

BTW, a Sun Dog and what I saw kind of lined up like this, there were 3 of them:

Yes, and don’t look at the sun either, this is true. Apparently, there have been serious injuries.

Lucia did say “Look at the sun!” or was it “look at the sky”, something like that, , we can remember that…as it was high in the sky apparently. Most of these “sun dog” photos have them close to the ground and that is how I saw it.

No one has intimated that his thread is out of place here in the traditional Catholicism forum, as the OP’s thread topic relates specifically to being a traditional Catholic and having to apparently deal with other traditional Catholics he’s met someplace else who he says give him flak for not believing in Fatima.

Nobody on this forum has given him any such flak, as there is none in the thread and he says he’s a first time poster so there were no past threads, so obviously he’s meeting these “Fatimaniacs” someplace other than on this forum. I presumed he was meeting them at church.

In general, discussions of approved private revelations go in Spirituality, but if there’s a connection to something else (here, Traditional Catholicism) they can go in that category as well. The categories aren’t that rigid and any regular can move threads to new categories if needed (though it’s not needed here), you don’t need a mod to do it.

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