Fatima Documentary Wed. Dec. 8 PAX TV


#1

Hi everyone,

Wanted to let people know that tomorrow, Wednesday, December 8, on PAX TV there will be a special documentary on Fatima called “Heaven’s Key to Peace”.

Here is the Website itself:

fatima.org/

One can also order this special on DVD or VHS here:

secure.fatima.org/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=14&cat=Heaven%27s+Key+to+Peace

Here are the times:

[size=5]“Heaven’s Key to Peace”[/size]

The ground-breaking new TV documentary
on the Fatima Message

December 8th 2004
12 noon & 12 midnight
(11 a.m. & 11 p.m. - central/mountain)
across the U.S.A. on Pax-TV network

December 4th 2004 8 p.m. (eastern) &
December 8th 2004 3 p.m. (eastern)
across Canada on Vision-TV network


Whatever you do – Wherever you are – you MUST see this brilliant and inspiring new documentary on Our Lady’s Message and its critical importance to our times. Never before has Fatima been explained so fully and convincingly. Mark your calendar now and tell all your friends and family members to watch.

Hope everyone gets a chance to watch or record this.

God bless.


#2

Thank you very much!


#3

If this is being pushed by fatima.org and the Fatima Network one must remember that this group is run by Fr. Nicholas Gruner.

I for one will be skipping it. If it was worth anything it would be on EWTN not PAX.


#4

Looks like something from unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/FATHER%20NICHOLAS%20GRUNER.html Not Recommended !

Sorry Brennan, nothing personal. :thumbsup:


#5

First, as Catholics, I believe we should be willing to give issues a fair hearing either by reading further or watching the documentary and *then *passing judgment as to its worth.

Secondly, the issue of Fatima and the Consecration of Russia can be discussed intelligently without mention of Father Gruner. In other words, the issue of the Consecration of Russia and Fatima are far greater and more important than Father Gruner, and I believe (and hope) the documentary will be about those issues and not so much about Father Gruner. Nevertheless, if someone wishes to read further, they can read a different take on Father Gruner’s “suspension” here:

[/font]

Again, my primary hope is that people research further and/or watch the documentary regardless of what they believe about Father Gruner. I personally think the issues concerning Fatima and the Consecration of Russia, along with the Third Secret are quite important for our times and are worth investigating; and that requires looking at *both *sides of the issue.

God bless.


#6

Thanks for the link above, I read it.

First, as Catholics, I believe we should be willing to give issues a fair hearing either by reading further or watching the documentary and *then *passing judgment as to its worth.

Secondly, the issue of Fatima and the Consecration of Russia can be discussed intelligently without mention of Father Gruner. In other words, the issue of the Consecration of Russia and Fatima are far greater and more important than Father Gruner, and I believe (and hope) the documentary will be about those issues and not so much about Father Gruner.

If someone wishes to read a different side to the story regarding Fatima and the Consecration of Russia they can start here (there are three parts):

fatima.org/news/newsviews/062504frfox1.asp

The article is polemical, but I think it does present some good food for thought, to say the least.

Also, if someone wishes to read further, they can read a different take on Father Gruner’s “suspension” here:

[/font]

Again, my primary hope is that people research further and/or watch the documentary regardless of what they believe about Father Gruner. I personally think the issues concerning Fatima and the Consecration of Russia, along with the Third Secret, are quite important for our times and are worth investigating; and that requires looking at *both *sides of the issue.

God bless.


#7

[quote=Brennan Doherty]Secondly, the issue of Fatima and the Consecration of Russia can be discussed intelligently without mention of Father Gruner. In other words, the issue of the Consecration of Russia and Fatima are far greater and more important than Father Gruner, and I believe (and hope) the documentary will be about those issues and not so much about Father Gruner.

[/quote]

You are right here. The issue of Fatima and the Consecration of Russia can be disccused intelligently.

It does not matter as the command(?) to consecrate Russia falls outside of the Deposit of Faith and public revelation. It is in the realm of private revelation and has no bearing on the Catholic Faith. I can, as a good and faithful Catholic, believe that Fatima is false.

It is a non-issue.

Now to bring up Fr Gruner, any “documentary” that he endorses is automatically suspect.

You will also find that many in the Fr Gruner camp think that Fatima should be held as a de fide of the Church, which it is not.

I would also say that when you provide links to Fr Gruner’s website to promote this “documentary” and even provide a link to buy it and thereby support Fr Gruner’s “ministry” you should expect for others to point out the facts about Fr Gruner.

If this “documentary” was worth anything it would be airing on EWTN, the Catholic Network, not some pseudo christian Family Network like PAX TV. Now I don’t have anything against that channel but I do not watch it.


#8

[quote=ByzCath]You are right here. The issue of Fatima and the Consecration of Russia can be disccused intelligently.

It does not matter as the command(?) to consecrate Russia falls outside of the Deposit of Faith and public revelation. It is in the realm of private revelation and has no bearing on the Catholic Faith. I can, as a good and faithful Catholic, believe that Fatima is false.

It is a non-issue.

Now to bring up Fr Gruner, any “documentary” that he endorses is automatically suspect.

You will also find that many in the Fr Gruner camp think that Fatima should be held as a de fide of the Church, which it is not.

I would also say that when you provide links to Fr Gruner’s website to promote this “documentary” and even provide a link to buy it and thereby support Fr Gruner’s “ministry” you should expect for others to point out the facts about Fr Gruner.

If this “documentary” was worth anything it would be airing on EWTN, the Catholic Network, not some pseudo christian Family Network like PAX TV. Now I don’t have anything against that channel but I do not watch it.
[/quote]

I would simply respond as follows. I agree that we are only to put human belief in an approved apparition of the Blessed Virgin Mary. And we do not even have to do that.

However, I would have to strongly disagree that because Fatima is outside the “Deposit of Faith” it is therefore a non-issue. The Blessed Virgin Mary gave a very specific and simple to follow request in asking Russia to be consecrated to her Immaculate Heart. She also stated explicitly what would follow depending on whether or not her request was heeded.

Now, if all there was to Fatima was a purported apparition with some inner locutions I could easily say, “Big deal.”

However, when this apparition is backed up by what I would call the greatest public miracle since Biblical times (the Miracle of the Sun) then it would behoove us to take the request of Our Lady very seriously indeed.

I mean, if the Miracle of the Sun is not enough to at least get us to take Our Lady’s requests seriously, then what is?

Thus, again, the question of whether or not Russia has been consecrated as Our Lady requested is quite relevant for today.

If someone starts watching the documentary with the notion that it is “suspect” because Father Gruner is involved with it, that is fine by me. I just hope people watch it.

As far as the special being on PAX, well, it wasn’t produced by PAX. Thus, the worth of the documentary does not seem related to which channel shows it. I like EWTN, but I honestly would not expect them to air a show on such a hot button issue. Thus it would need to be aired on a channel like PAX.

Further, I have never read anywhere on Fatima.org anyone referring to Fatima as part of the “de fide” Deposit of Faith. They take Fatima seriously, yes, and do consider it weightier than at least a regular “private revelation”. I would also because of the Miracle of the Sun as stated above, even though I grant that people do not have to believe in Fatima.

Well, here’s hoping that people watch the documentary tomorrow or order it!

God bless.


#9

Again, that is if you believe in it. It is not a requried belief so it is a non-issue.


#10

[quote=ByzCath]Again, that is if you believe in it. It is not a requried belief so it is a non-issue.
[/quote]

Well, then by your argumentation, I suppose everything that is not a “required belief” is a non-issue. Don’t you think that heaven (and also verified by the Church) has provided enough evidence to the legitimacy of Fatima to compel Catholics to take the requests of Our Lady seriously? Sure, one does not have to believe in Fatima to be a Catholic, but can one suppose that God sent the Blessed Virgin Mary to earth with these messages, and backed them up by the Miracle of the Sun, for no particular reason at all? Or just so her requests can be safely ignored?

If one does not believe, or take the messages of Fatima seriously, then what apparition of the Blessed Virgin Mary would one believe in if there is not enough evidence for the legitimacy of Fatima?

God bless.


#11

Here is all the answers we need.

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
**PART ONE
THE PROFESSION OF FAITH

SECTION ONE
"I BELIEVE" - “WE BELIEVE”

CHAPTER TWO
GOD COMES TO MEET MAN
ARTICLE 1
THE REVELATION OF GOD

II. CHRIST JESUS – “MEDIATOR AND FULLNESS OF ALL REVELATION”**

God has said everything in his Word

65 “In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son.” Christ, the Son of God made man, is the Father’s one, perfect and unsurpassable Word. In him he has said everything; there will be no other word than this one. St. John of the Cross, among others, commented strikingly on Hebrews 1:1-2:

In giving us his Son, his only Word (for he possesses no other), he spoke everything to us at once in this sole Word - and he has no more to say. . . because what he spoke before to the prophets in parts, he has now spoken all at once by giving us the All Who is His Son. Any person questioning God or desiring some vision or revelation would be guilty not only of foolish behavior but also of offending him, by not fixing his eyes entirely upon Christ and by living with the desire for some other novelty.

There will be no further Revelation

66 “The Christian economy, therefore, since it is the new and definitive Covenant, will never pass away; and no new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ.” Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries.

67 Throughout the ages, there have been so-called “private” revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the Magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church.

Christian faith cannot accept “revelations” that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such “revelations”.

That says it all, again, There will be no further Revelation.

You asked for what reason Mary would give this message for, it is also answered here, once again “It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history.”

And then it finishes with the statement that the Christian faith cannot accept messages that surpass or correct public Revelation and that there are sects which base themseves on such messages. I would hazard a guess that this site you keep promoting, fatima.org and its leader Fr Gruner as well as some other “apparitions” of today would qualify as sects as mentioned here.

I would also add, once again, if this “documentary” was worth anyhthing it would be on EWTN.


#12

[quote=Brennan Doherty]Well, here’s hoping that people watch the documentary tomorrow or order it!

[/quote]

Thanks BUT No thanks. If Gruner is involved, there is no way I care to contribute to his apostasy. I’ll stick with Holy Mother Church and FR Fox who is the real spokes person and expert on Fatima.


#13

[quote=ByzCath]Here is all the answers we need.

That says it all, again, There will be no further Revelation.

You asked for what reason Mary would give this message for, it is also answered here, once again “It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history.”

And then it finishes with the statement that the Christian faith cannot accept messages that surpass or correct public Revelation and that there are sects which base themseves on such messages. I would hazard a guess that this site you keep promoting, fatima.org and its leader Fr Gruner as well as some other “apparitions” of today would qualify as sects as mentioned here.

I would also add, once again, if this “documentary” was worth anyhthing it would be on EWTN.
[/quote]

I literally do not know why you keep asserting that unless this documentary is on EWTN it is not worth anything. Why don’t you watch it first and then tell us what it is worth?

Obviously, Fatima does not add to or correct the Deposit of Faith or Revelation. If it did, the Church would not have approved it in the first place. If you have not visited the site, [/font]http://www.fatima.org, and are really just hazarding a guess that they are possibly some sort of “sect”, then I invite you to visit there and post some evidence that they truly are some sort of sect. Even if they are completely wrong in their assertion that the Third Secret has not been fully revealed or Russia has not been consecrated this does not make them part of a sect. Good Catholics can disagree on this issue. I just hope we all can have an open mind and look at the evidence from both sides.

God bless.


#14

I frankly believe Sr Lucia has stated Grunner is NOT to be believed. As she is the Seer, NOT GRUNER and company, why would one even listen to Gruner over her? :confused: :rolleyes:

Sr. Lucia: “No More Mysteries in Fátima Secret”

The group then spoke about the statements of Nicholas Gruner, a Canadian priest suspended “a divinis,” who is collecting signatures insisting that the Pope finally consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, and alleging that this has never been done.

Sister Lucia told the archbishop: “The Carmel Community has rejected the forms for the collection of signatures. I have already said that the consecration requested by Our Lady was done in 1984, and it has been accepted in heaven.”

MEETING WITH SR MARIA LUCIA


#15

[quote=ByzCath]I would also add, once again, if this “documentary” was worth anyhthing it would be on EWTN.
[/quote]

This sounds a lot like Abe Fox of the Jewish Defamation League concerning The Passion movie.

Look, if it so happens that PAX’s audience rating say, doubles during this period, then they will consider other CATHOLIC programs in the future which may be to your liking, and still not make it on EWTN because of budget or busy scheduling.

Besides, many of us do NOT have anything but “rabbit ear” cable, and EWTN is NOT accessible to us (the poor of spirit).
Something to think about…will you at least do it for the poor Catholics?


#16

[quote=TNT]This sounds a lot like Abe Fox of the Jewish Defamation League concerning The Passion movie.

Look, if it so happens that PAX’s audience rating say, doubles during this period, then they will consider other CATHOLIC programs in the future which may be to your liking, and still not make it on EWTN because of budget or busy scheduling.

Besides, many of us do NOT have anything but “rabbit ear” cable, and EWTN is NOT accessible to us (the poor of spirit).
Something to think about…will you at least do it for the poor Catholics?
[/quote]

Been poor and had no cable. Matter of fact…had no TV. BUT, I have always followed and read the TRUE FATIMA message, long before TV’s and the net existed.

Nope! I am not stupid enough to watch a Gruner promotion of Fatima. Poor does not equate being a party to Gruners dis-information. Poor does not equate with allowing myself to view Satan trying to discredit Fatima through the like of Gruner. :rolleyes:


#17

[quote=Marie]Been poor and had no cable. Matter of fact…had no TV. BUT, I have always followed and read the TRUE FATIMA message, long before TV’s and the net existed.

Nope! I am not stupid enough to watch a Gruner promotion of Fatima. Poor does not equate being a party to Gruners dis-information. Poor does not equate with allowing myself to view Satan trying to discredit Fatima through the like of Gruner. :rolleyes:
[/quote]

Pretty tough words and arrogant to equal a priest of GOD who was validly ordained, but of course: YOU are very catholic and KNOW fatima because you witnessed the 1917 apparitions: after all, did you not yourself say: “I am wayy to old.”? smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/15/15_11_1.gif


#18

[quote=misericordie]Pretty tough words and arrogant to equal a priest of GOD who was validly ordained, but of course: YOU are very catholic and KNOW fatima because you witnessed the 1917 apparitions: after all, did you not yourself say: “I am wayy to old.”? smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/15/15_11_1.gif
[/quote]

Hmmmm, while he is validly ordained he is also validly suspended I believe. He also has no faculties from the Diocese of Leiria-Fatima to perform ministerial acts.

Here are some interesting links.

STATEMENT ON FATHER NICHOLAS GRUNER Congregation for the Clergy
DECLARATION ON SUSPENDED PRIEST Congregation for the Clergy
Fr. Gruner and his media apostolates

As for the argument that one does not have cable and can not get EWTN but that PAX does have some channels that can be picked up by antenna and that if their viewership increases while airing this “documentary” that maybe they will pick up more Catholic programming.

I have to disagree with that. For this to be true this “documentary” would have to be Catholic to begin with. As it is being pushed (if not produced) by a dissenter priest who is suspended I would guess that it is going to voice things that go against what has been said by the Holy Father, the Vatican, and even Sister Lucia. I would not call this program a Catholic program.


#19

[quote=Marie]Been poor and had no cable. Matter of fact…had no TV. BUT, I have always followed and read the TRUE FATIMA message, long before TV’s and the net existed.

Nope! I am not stupid enough to watch a Gruner promotion of Fatima. Poor does not equate being a party to Gruners dis-information. Poor does not equate with allowing myself to view Satan trying to discredit Fatima through the like of Gruner. :rolleyes:
[/quote]

I don’t know why people don’t simply look at the evidence regarding Fatima. There are facts in regard to Fatima which have nothing to do with Father Gruner, and they do not stand or fall with him.

My only hope is that people watch this documentary and then weigh the evidence or lack thereof in their own minds.

God bless!


#20

How much of the enthusiasm for the Fatima conspiracy (that Russia was not consecrated and that Our Lady’s message is being actively ignored) is an extension of anxiety about the “new mass”? I think that traditionalism, especially in relation to doubting the Second Vatican Council and believing that the Pauline rite of mass is not the “true mass”, requires some sort of corroboration: since it is not appropriate to disbelieve an ecumenical council nor a rite promulgated by the Church, traditionalists seize upon such things as Fatima, which are inherently less well-defined and thus more susceptible to interpretation. In a similar vein, traditionalist critiques of the mass focus often on the priest’s “intent”: of form, matter, and intent, the latter is the least clarified and yet the most automatic. Traditionalists’ theology (if it can be called that) about “intent” is non-credible because their notions of form are quite ignorant: they frequently quote an old catechism as if the catechism were itself a dogmatic statement rather than an explanatory one. The form used in the Pauline rite of mass is dogmatically sound. If they can’t evaluate “form”, how can they evaluate “intent”?

Sungenis is among those who promote the conspiracy theory regarding Fatima. I am increasingly getting the impression that Sungenis has become something of a crank. It isn’t his embracing of geocentrism; I’m not a scientist and frankly I can’t evaluate the evidence. I know most scientists consider geocentrism to be laughable; my faith doesn’t require geocentrism but it won’t surprise me much to find out in the next world that it is actually true. So it’s not that. One thing that bothers me on Sungenis’ site is the criticism of the New American Bible. I tried to follow their critique of footnotes, and I was, in several spot-checks, unable to duplicate the text at issue, and more frequently I couldn’t follow the argument being made about a given footnote: it seemed to be written with sloppy reasoning by people with less than adequate training. Also, Sungenis’ criticism of the Assisi gatherings appears to be a nonsense, and also makes the error of giving scandal by criticising the Holy Father publicly. So with all that, how can I trust Sungenis to meaningfully evaluate who said/did what in relation to Fatima?

This documentary is probably akin to the “In the Spirit of Chartres” video that tries to argue that the Church has been damaged by the rites promulgated by the Church. The video all but asserts that the Church is presently without a valid hierarchy. It appears to be a documentary but the information contained is based mostly on emotional appeal and is thin on facts. The “third secret” is tantalizing to traditionalists, who are desperate to find some basis for rejecting the Pauline rite of mass. But this is Satan’s illusion to them: an act of selfishness is disguised as holiness. The father of lies appeals to the separatist instinct and dresses it up as higher spirituality. There is no reason to reject the Pauline rite of mass, even if one prefers the Tridentine liturgy. But one only understands that in faith: this is why the traditionalist movement is dangerous. Faith is traded in for preference, preference is disguised as faith, and support is sought from quarters that lack the foundation.


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