Fatima, Russia, and Holy Union


#1

Fatima, Russia, and Holy Union by Brother Nicodemus of the Transalpine Redemptorists (now in union with Rome)

Excellent video:
fatimaondemand.org/en/index.php/conferences/india-2008/brother-nicodemus/213-fatima-russia-and-holy-unia

This is an excellent talk. I hope that one day the Transalpine Redemptorists will also have the faculty to have the Divine Liturgy. They have a few Eastern Catholic members.


#2

I tend to be very concerned when a group is in any way associated with Fr. Gruner. He is not a priest in good standing with the CC.


#3

This recording was made before the Transalpine Redemptorists were canonically regularized. They used to be part of the SSPX, now they have status in the Church just like the FSSP or the Institute of the Good Shepard. The substance of the talk is very good.


#4

[quote="Tradycja, post:3, topic:208404"]
This recording was made before the Transalpine Redemptorists were canonically regularized. They used to be part of the SSPX, now they have status in the Church just like the FSSP or the Institute of the Good Shepard. The substance of the talk is very good.

[/quote]

Yes it is! I watched it all. I just noticed that Fr Gruner was also speaking there. That's all I was commenting on. Thanks for the link. I watched and enjoyed. And have gotten other links from it. :)


#5

SAD SPEECH

I found this to be a particularly sad speech by such a sad fellow. So superficial - he dress up like Orthodox monk, to play at being "Russian", because he love "Russia", but also "India". He fells that Rome is center of Divine Authority and that unity must be centered in the Papacy of Rome. He then says how many Eastern Catholics of India feel ostracized. That word comes from Greek habit to exile or cut people off from community. But he ignores this - just says - o, then you must feel for Catolics of Russia. But he misses the point - these Indian Eastern Catolics have been lost - swallowed alive by Catolic church and then forgotten, and worse ostracized. This is why there will be no Holy Unia under Roman Pope. Such Brother Nikodemius is a sad spokesman who cannot even realize what horrible thing he is urging.


#6

Excuse me but Brother Nicodemus was baptized and grew up in the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church. He is not "dressing up". He is not a Latin, therefore this is the proper dress for a monk in his tradition.

The reason for anyone to be in union with Rome is that it is necessary for salvation. This is what Brother Nicodemus is urging. I don't like a lot of things going on in the Catholic Church, why do I stay? Because otherwise I will not save my soul.


#7

[quote="Tradycja, post:6, topic:208404"]
Excuse me but Brother Nicodemus was baptized and grew up in the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church. He is not "dressing up". He is not a Latin, therefore this is the proper dress for a monk in his tradition.

The reason for anyone to be in union with Rome is that it is necessary for salvation. This is what Brother Nicodemus is urging. I don't like a lot of things going on in the Catholic Church, why do I stay? Because otherwise I will not save my soul.

[/quote]

OMGosh, there is a whole thread on salvation outside the Church going on right now. It's one of the most misunderstood statements in Catholicism. How can you possibly think that an Orthodox or devout Protestant is condemned to hell for not being Catholic? What about those 10 Christian Missionary doctors recently killed in Afghanistan while doing God's work? Are they in hell? They weren't Catholic.


#8

[quote="Tradycja, post:6, topic:208404"]
Excuse me but Brother Nicodemus was baptized and grew up in the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church. He is not "dressing up". He is not a Latin, therefore this is the proper dress for a monk in his tradition.

The reason for anyone to be in union with Rome is that it is necessary for salvation. This is what Brother Nicodemus is urging. I don't like a lot of things going on in the Catholic Church, why do I stay? Because otherwise I will not save my soul.

[/quote]

Have a grand time:

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=480821

It's 18 pages long and the discussion goes on with no middle ground. Just like many threads here.


#9

[quote="Tradycja, post:6, topic:208404"]
. . . I don't like a lot of things going on in the Catholic Church, why do I stay? Because otherwise I will not save my soul.

[/quote]

It appears that you have good support: John 6:67-69

67 Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also wish to go away?" 68* Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life; 69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God."


#10

[quote="cathdoki, post:7, topic:208404"]
OMGosh, there is a whole thread on salvation outside the Church going on right now. It's one of the most misunderstood statements in Catholicism. How can you possibly think that an Orthodox or devout Protestant is condemned to hell for not being Catholic? What about those 10 Christian Missionary doctors recently killed in Afghanistan while doing God's work? Are they in hell? They weren't Catholic.

[/quote]

Well actually Pope Eugene IV proclaimed in the council of Florence that even if you shed your blood for Christ if you do not abide in the Catholic Church you cannot be saved.

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and tha*t nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”*


#11

That said, everyone who is baptized is a Catholic until the point that they embrace a heretical idea or schism.

Pope Pius XI, Ecclesiam Dei, Encyclical on St. Josaphat, Nov. 12, 1923: “Our Saint [Josaphat] was born of schismatic parents but was validly baptized and received the name of John. From his earliest years he lived a saintly life. Although he was much impressed by the splendors of the Slavic liturgy, he always sought therein first and foremost the truth and glory of God. Because of this, and not because he was impressed by arguments**, even as a child he turned towards communion with the Ecumenical, that is, the Catholic Church. Of this Church he always considered himself a member because of the valid baptism which he had received. ** What is more, he felt himself called by a special Providence to re-establish everywhere the holy unity of the Church.”


#12

[quote="cathdoki, post:7, topic:208404"]
OMGosh, there is a whole thread on salvation outside the Church going on right now. It's one of the most misunderstood statements in Catholicism. How can you possibly think that an Orthodox or devout Protestant is condemned to hell for not being Catholic? What about those 10 Christian Missionary doctors recently killed in Afghanistan while doing God's work? Are they in hell? They weren't Catholic.

[/quote]

If they weren't Catholic they weren't doing God's work.

Check out what St. Francis De Sales says in Catholic Controversy:

"Well now, let us return to our road. Such signal examples and instructions as these, in poverty, chastity, and denial of self, - to whom have they been left? To the Church. But why? Our Lord tells us: He who can receive, let him receive. And who can receive them? He who has the gift of God; and no one has the gift of God but he who asks for it ;-but, how shall they call on him in whom they have not believed. . . . How shall they believe . . . without a preacher ! And how can they preach unless they be sent (Rom. x.)? Now, there is no mission outside the Church, therefore the he who can receive let him receive, is addressed immediately only to the Church, or for those who are in the Church, since outside the Church it cannot be put in practice. S. Paul shows it more clearly : I speak this, he says, for your profit, not to make snares and nets for you, but to persuade you to that which is decent, and which may give you power and facility to attend upon the Lord, and to honor him without impediment.. And, in fact, the Scriptures and the examples that are therein are only for our utility and instruction; the Church then ought to use, and put into practice, these most holy counsels of her Spouse otherwise they would have been vainly and uselessly left, and proposed to her: indeed she has well known how to take them for herself, and to profit by them: -and see how."
goodcatholicbooks.org/francis/catholic-controversy/church-authority.html


#13

[quote="Tradycja, post:11, topic:208404"]
That said, everyone who is baptized is a Catholic until the point that they embrace a heretical idea or schism.

Pope Pius XI, Ecclesiam Dei, Encyclical on St. Josaphat, Nov. 12, 1923: “Our Saint [Josaphat] was born of schismatic parents but was validly baptized and received the name of John. From his earliest years he lived a saintly life. Although he was much impressed by the splendors of the Slavic liturgy, he always sought therein first and foremost the truth and glory of God. Because of this, and not because he was impressed by arguments**, even as a child he turned towards communion with the Ecumenical, that is, the Catholic Church. Of this Church he always considered himself a member because of the valid baptism which he had received. ** What is more, he felt himself called by a special Providence to re-establish everywhere the holy unity of the Church.”

[/quote]

:rolleyes:


#14

[quote="Tradycja, post:10, topic:208404"]
Well actually Pope Eugene IV proclaimed in the council of Florence that even if you shed your blood for Christ if you do not abide in the Catholic Church you cannot be saved.

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and tha*t nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”*

[/quote]

:p


#15

[quote="Tradycja, post:12, topic:208404"]
If they weren't Catholic they weren't doing God's work.

Does Catolic Church not believe that sinners those in hell are sinners? Does not even your own Pope say: *We all know that those who suffer from invincible ignorance * with regard to our holy religion, if they carefully keep the precepts of the natural law which have been written by God in the hearts of all men, if they are prepared to obey God, and if they lead a virtuous and dutiful life, can, by the power of divine light and grace, attain eternal life. For God, who knows completely the minds and souls, the thoughts and habits of all men, will not permit, **in accord with His infinite goodness and mercy, **anyone who is not guilty of a voluntary fault to suffer eternal punishment . Pope Pius IX.

[/quote]


#16

Dear Friends,

As someone who has been a member of the Fatima apostolate for years, I just wanted to say that I hope Fatima does not become a point of divisive tension here or anywhere else.

The Transalpine Redemptorists have also been in an unfortunate state of tension with the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church in Ukraine and its Synod. The Transalpine Redemptorists have, for example, represented a perspective that tends to see an amalgamated "Eastern Slavic Catholic Rite" as the ultimate aim of its evangelization efforts in Eastern Europe and this is not the vision of the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church for the most part.

I know one Orthodox priest who believes in Fatima but who says that the prophecies of Fatima have been fulfilled in Russia to the extent that the conversion of Russia is complete as the (Orthodox) churches are full and the Mother of God is praised everywhere in her miraculous icons and the like.

Orthodox are often startled by the mere mention of Fatima as they see it as one way certain Catholics wish to impose RCism on them. I hope that is not the case and that the unity between the Churches we all pray for can come about in more irenical ways.

Alex


#17

[quote="Alexander_Roman, post:16, topic:208404"]
Dear Friends,

As someone who has been a member of the Fatima apostolate for years, I just wanted to say that I hope Fatima does not become a point of divisive tension here or anywhere else.

The Transalpine Redemptorists have also been in an unfortunate state of tension with the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church in Ukraine and its Synod. The Transalpine Redemptorists have, for example, represented a perspective that tends to see an amalgamated "Eastern Slavic Catholic Rite" as the ultimate aim of its evangelization efforts in Eastern Europe and this is not the vision of the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church for the most part.

I know one Orthodox priest who believes in Fatima but who says that the prophecies of Fatima have been fulfilled in Russia to the extent that the conversion of Russia is complete as the (Orthodox) churches are full and the Mother of God is praised everywhere in her miraculous icons and the like.

Orthodox are often startled by the mere mention of Fatima as they see it as one way certain Catholics wish to impose RCism on them. I hope that is not the case and that the unity between the Churches we all pray for can come about in more irenical ways.

Alex

[/quote]

Welcome to CAF Alex. :) I am glad we can count another Ukrainian Catholic as a member of CAF! There are lots of questions sometimes put to us on here by others. :D

God Bless.

Andrew. :)


#18

[quote="Alexander_Roman, post:16, topic:208404"]
Dear Friends,

As someone who has been a member of the Fatima apostolate for years, I just wanted to say that I hope Fatima does not become a point of divisive tension here or anywhere else.

Orthodox are often startled by the mere mention of Fatima as they see it as one way certain Catholics wish to impose RCism on them. I hope that is not the case and that the unity between the Churches we all pray for can come about in more irenical ways.

Alex

[/quote]

Welcome to CAF Alex.

God Bless.

Andrew. :) :)


#19

Dear Andrew,

Thank you sir! May God bless!

Alex ;)


#20

[quote="Tradycja, post:10, topic:208404"]
Well actually Pope Eugene IV proclaimed in the council of Florence that even if you shed your blood for Christ if you do not abide in the Catholic Church you cannot be saved.

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and tha*t nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”*

[/quote]

Fairly close to what is in Denzinger 714.

That makes sense because pagans and Jews are not baptised. Formal heretics and schismatics are in serious sin, because they are not in a state of invincible ignorance which would excuse it, rather, they have chosen to leave the Church.

The history of those years is very complex:

1431 C. began Basel Switzerland
1438 C. moved Ferrara Italy, Pope Eugene IV excommunicated all who continued to assemble at Basel
1439 C. moved Florence Italy, agreement of union
1439 Russian Church separated from Constantinople
1440 Patriarch Metrophanes II succeded Patriarch Joseph II
1441 Cantate Domino of Pope Eugene IV
1443 C. moved Lateran
1443 Patriarch Gregory III succeded Patriarch Metrophanes II
1445 C. ends
1450 Patriarch Gregory III in exile
1453 Fall of Constantinople
1470 Patriarch Gregory III defected from Rome
1569 Union of Lubin (Poland-Lithuania) new Muscovy border
1588 Moscow Patriarchate established via Constantinople


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