Fear or no fear? salvation sure or not? contradictions


#1

to rescue us from the hand of our enemies, and to enable us to serve him without fear
Luke 1:74

this seems to teach a Protestant kind of freedom after salvation, all works being for the glory of Christ and not related to salvation…

work out your salvation with fear and trembling
Phil 2:12

this seems to teach a Catholic kind of understanding of having to work for one’s salvation, fearing possible mortal sin and the damnation that would result…

Are we to fear or not to fear? Scripture seems contradictory. In romans Paul seems to teach there’s no need for any fear since it’s basically certain that God will save us:

Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!
Romans 5:9-10

If our final salvation is more sure than our initial justification and reconciliation, then all of us should go to heaven without any possibility of losing our salvation. Now I know of many verses that contradict this, but how else are we to understand this passage?

thanks!


#2

Not so when examined in context, The passage from Luke is referring to temporal enemies. Philippians 2:12 is referring to the spiritual. Matthew 10:28 Fits this situation nicely:

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. (Luke 1:74) But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Phil. 2:12)

In romans Paul seems to teach there’s no need for any fear since it’s basically certain that God will save us:
Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!
Romans 5:9-10
If our final salvation is more sure than our initial justification and reconciliation, then all of us should go to heaven without any possibility of losing our salvation. Now I know of many verses that contradict this, but how else are we to understand this passage?
thanks!

Again, with a little context it is not so contradictory. Romans 5:9-10 does not preclude the necessity of persevering in the life of Christ to the end (Mark 13:13)

Peace,
+N


#3
  1. But Christ didn’t save us from our temporal enemies
  2. What context? Romans 5 seems to teach a full certainty of final salvation for all the initially justified.

#4

I don’t think Zechariah’s prophecy had to do with saving us from our temporal enemies either. The “enemies” in this passage are what caused us to fear" in our relationship with God; those things that made us unholy and unrighteous before Him
Luke 1:74-75 to grant us that we, being delivered from the hand of our enemies, might serve him without fear, in holiness and righteousness before him all the days of our life.

My understanding is that these “enemies” would be our sins and Satan who accuses us of them before God.
( Rev. 12:10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. )

The passage in Luke merely foretells what type of salvation Jesus would accomplish.
**It does not go into: **

  1. who the salvation is for (eg. Gentiles and Jews? “Us” in context could be interpreted as Jews.)
  2. Neither does it go into what is required on our part to receive this gift of salvation or whether or not we can lose it after receiving it.

Nita


#5

QUOTE=fineca;2501781]

work out your salvation with fear and trembling
Phil 2:12

this seems to teach a Catholic kind of understanding of having to work for one’s salvation, fearing possible mortal sin and the damnation that would result…

Yes, this passage is part of our Catholic understanding regarding salvation. It certainly shows that salvation involves “work” on our part - work that we must take very seriously.

Are we to fear or not to fear? Scripture seems contradictory.

Both. Scripture is not contradictory.
No fear of coming before God - if we repent of our sins and ask for forgiveness; if we earnestly seek to serve God and do His will (obey His commands).

Fear of not continuing in the life of grace bestowed on us in Baptism and thereby forfeiting the gift of salvation we had received. The Protestant teaching of OSAS presumes on God’s goodness. In that respect it is like the Satan’s temptation of Jesus that we read about in Luke 4:9-12

In romans Paul seems to teach there’s no need for any fear since it’s basically certain that God will save us:

Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!
Romans 5:9-10

It is “basically certain” only if we have His “life” in us - sanctifying grace, the supernatural life of God.

If our final salvation is more sure than our initial justification and reconciliation, then all of us should go to heaven without any possibility of losing our salvation. Now I know of many verses that contradict this, but how else are we to understand this passage?

Our final salvation is not more sure than our initial justification and reconciliation - so it’s no wonder that Scripture clarifies this point in many verses.

The Church takes all Scripture passages on a topic and incorprates all that is related in those passages, thereby giving us the true and full teaching of Scripture. No one should take just one Scripture passage and think it contains the totality of teaching on that topic.

Hope this helps.

Nita


#6

Phil 2:12
1st
It doesn’t say working on achieving salvation, it states working out…
unwrapping, mining. You’ve been given a silver mine, now start digging it out, THATS WORKING OUT!

2nd

Here is a verse that gives us a clue of the fear and trembling part…
I’d say squished down it sounds like “incredibly intense awe” a shaking awesomeness.

2 Corinthians 7:14-16 In addition to our own encouragement, we were especially delighted to see how happy Titus was, because his spirit has been refreshed by all of you. 14I had boasted to him about you, and you have not embarrassed me. But just as everything we said to you was true, so our boasting about you to Titus has proved to be true as well. 15And his affection for you is all the greater when he remembers that you were all obedient, receiving him with fear and trembling. 16I am glad I can have complete confidence in you.

So for now I’ll give you this…The Lord of my life gave me salvation by putting my trust in HIM, I should with great awe and excitement unwrap it more or frantically dig out the treasure that is already given in the GREATEST gift of love by JESUS CHRIST.


#7

I second that.:thumbsup:


#8

I especially like how the passage you cited shows that it is “obedience” that demonstrates this “fear and trembling”.

Nita


#9

Sure He did and does. Even if we are torn asunder by our temporal enemies, we have the confidence that it is this mortal life which is least important of all anyway.

  1. What context? Romans 5 seems to teach a full certainty of final salvation for all the initially justified.

Nita answered this quite well:

Originally posted by Nita
The Church takes all Scripture passages on a topic and incorporates all that is related in those passages, thereby giving us the true and full teaching of Scripture. No one should take just one Scripture passage and think it contains the totality of teaching on that topic.

That is the context of which I spoke.

Peace,
+N


#10

So what if you give up digging/unwrapping because it’s too hard to get to the treasure?


#11

PROVERBS STATES…
The “fear of the Lord” is **the beginning of knowledge **- Pr 1:7
The “fear of the Lord” will **cause one to hate evil - Pr 8:13
The “fear of the Lord”
will prolong life **- Pr 10:27
The “fear of the Lord” provides strong confidence and is a
fountain of life - Pr 14:26-27
The “fear of the Lord”
prompts one to depart from evil
- Pr 16:6
The “fear of the Lord” **leads to a satisfying life, and spares
one from much evil **- Pr 19:23
The “fear of the Lord” is the way to riches, honor, and life!
- Pr 22:4


#12

See the word GIVEN it is there for you its yours.


#13

I thought that we were saved by faith apart from works.


#14

NO, but I do think myfavoritmartin has a good analogy here, but he doesn’t realize what it is yet.

First of all, the silver mine would be equivalent to redemption, which Christ gave us upon the cross.

Second of all, the silver in the mine would be salvation.

Sometimes Protestants get confused between the difference between “redemption” and “salvation”, but it is not their fault, because it is what they have been taught.

Christ redeemed us upon the Cross, That is he gave us the “deed to the silver mine”, We need faith to believe that this is indeed a real silver mine, and when we place our trust him, we then need to then dig out the silver, which is our salvation.
But we can’t do this with our bare hands, we need God to provide all the tools necessary to dig out this silver, it is encased in hardened rock.
In real live this would be living out our faith in Love, and when we do this we will receive salvation.

If you recieve the deed to the silver mine, and have faith it is a real silver mine, but never dig out the silver, then what do you have?

A piece of paper.


#15

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