Fifth Dogma Relating to Mary?


#1

I heard on a Catholic radio station today that there is a push within the church for a fifth dogma related to Mary. They mentioned that it would have something to do with her being the spiritual mother of all humankind. Does anyone know anything about this? Does it differ from teachings today? Is it something that could become a reality in the near future?


#2

[quote=PalmSunday]I heard on a Catholic radio station today that there is a push within the church for a fifth dogma related to Mary. They mentioned that it would have something to do with her being the spiritual mother of all humankind. Does anyone know anything about this? Does it differ from teachings today? Is it something that could become a reality in the near future?
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It is probably the title “Mediatrix of all Graces.”

ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4.htm

and/or the title “Co-redemptorix”


#3

Ok somebody needs to start doing some hardcore apologetics, because that article really, really, really, really disturbed me. The opening statements up through the Vatican II statements were uneasy, but I ignored them.

Then I saw the quote from Leo XIII, where he said Mary had “practically limitless power.” That bothered me. A LOT.

Then There was the Father’s attempt to explain Mediatrix. I’m sorry, but what he said doesn’t make her any less of an infringement of Christ’s sole midatorship at all. If anything it makes her worse. If Mary is the neck of the Body of Christ, as he says, and if Grace is dispensed “from God to Christ, from Christ to the Virgin, from the Virgin to us,” then she is infringing on Christ’s ground, because we simply CAN’T get any Grace except through her. That statement REQUIRES us to go through her to God.

Also, his arguement that Mary was unnecessary (Answer #2) does not hold up. In fact, Christ was not really “necessary” if you want to put it that way. As has been said many times, notably by Jimmy Akin, God could have done it any way he chose, and Christ was His choice. So to say that it does not take away Christ’s sole mediatorship because He was necessary whereas she is not does not hold up, especially when considered with the above paragraph that she apparently IS necessary for distribution of Grace!

I have always said that Catholics don’t worship Mary, but this really seems to be coming so close that it’s impossible to see the line. I understand this is not a dogma, but it seems as though it soon could be.

Believe me, I am NO believer in Sola Scriptura. It is the most absurd idea in all of religion, in my opinion. What I AM a believer in is that anything that goes so far to CONTRADICT Scripture is wrong and sin. This, to me, contradicts Scripture.

Prove me wrong. Please? :confused:


#4

Co-redemptrix? In what way is Mary a vessel of redemption for humanity?

I can understand honoring Mary, and praying the Hail Mary I can understand how she is the most perfect example of discipleship.

It seems that to name Mary as a co-redemprtrix, while maintaining that Jesus is Sufficient and Unique as a the vessel of our salvation is almost duplicitous.

I appreciate the link you provided, which explains several ways in which Mary may be the Mediatrix of grace, or an instrument God has chosen to use because of the richness Mary adds to the dispensation of salvation. Is this an official position of the Church?

I am a little confused, and open to instruction. My thanks in advance!


#5

First these are not offical titles for the Blessed Mother; however they have been debated and there are some that would like to see these become dogmas. Therefore, I posted what I thought what the 5th dogma was over. I doubt that the Vatican is really considering this right now.


#6

I understood (perhaps incorrectly) that our late Holy Father, JPII, may he rest in peace, had a poll/study done on the proposal of this dogma with a large number of Marian theologians, that they advised him not to proclaim it, and it died. I don’t know exactly what was proposed, however. I think the Church should be extraordinarily careful about this.


#7

[quote=JKirkLVNV]I understood (perhaps incorrectly) that our late Holy Father, JPII, may he rest in peace, had a poll/study done on the proposal of this dogma with a large number of Marian theologians, that they advised him not to proclaim it, and it died. I don’t know exactly what was proposed, however. I think the Church should be extraordinarily careful about this.
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You’re darn right they should! I was a Protestant for a long time. I was very anti-Catholic. I realized all my ideas and objections were ridiculous. I am very open to things and being shown where I err. However(barring someone doing a SPECTACULAR job explaining ths), to me, if this were to become a dogma (or even something strongly supported, like the Rosary), this would show the Church really does worship Mary and really is as bad as I always thought! I am really, really hoping against this…


#8

I don’t get worried over things like this, I trust Christ when he said the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church. If the Holy Spirit wills it, the Holy Spirit wills it.


#9

[quote=Psalm45:9]I don’t get worried over things like this, I trust Christ when he said the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church. If the Holy Spirit wills it, the Holy Spirit wills it.
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My point is that if this becomes dogma, its obviously NOT the Holy Spirit willing it. I have full faith in the Church as keeper of the Word and interpreter of the Scripture, and full faith in “capital T” Tradition and the Magesterium, and if they say something then I can believe it. However, there is one exception to this, which is when they were to contradict God Inspired Scriptures. Again I say, Sola Scriptura is ludicrous, but they are still God-Inspired and can’t be contradicted. This (qualified with the condition that nobody shows me otherwise) to me would clearly contradict the Bible, showing that Hells gates HAD overcome the Church and that therefore the Church is not really the True Church. They have never contradicted Scriptures (or themselves) before, and I have faith they never will, but the thing about this is, it only takes once.


#10

In the hour or so I have been considering this, I would have to say my feelings resonate with Lazerlike. I do hope they let this lay and keep the honor in which the Church holds Mary to be sufficient as it is.


#11

[quote=Lazerlike42]My point is that if this becomes dogma, its obviously NOT the Holy Spirit willing it. I have full faith in the Church as keeper of the Word and interpreter of the Scripture, and full faith in “capital T” Tradition and the Magesterium, and if they say something then I can believe it. However, there is one exception to this, which is when they were to contradict God Inspired Scriptures. Again I say, Sola Scriptura is ludicrous, but they are still God-Inspired and can’t be contradicted. This (qualified with the condition that nobody shows me otherwise) to me would clearly contradict the Bible, showing that Hells gates HAD overcome the Church and that therefore the Church is not really the True Church. They have never contradicted Scriptures (or themselves) before, and I have faith they never will, but the thing about this is, it only takes once.
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Which is why I don’t worry, the Holy Spirit will protect the Church.


#12

Now, I don’t know that we can disregard this, because if this was on the radio today, and because I know it was yesterday, then that shows the Church is considering this, not in the past, but at this very moment…


#13

[quote=Lazerlike42]Now, I don’t know that we can disregard this, because if this was on the radio today, and because I know it was yesterday, then that shows the Church is considering this, not in the past, but at this very moment…
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I love our Blessed Lady as much as the next guy, but I can’t provide any apologetics, because I myself am not in favor of this proclaimed as dogma.

I wholeheartedly accept all proclaimed Marian dogmas, and I notice one thing in common: theses dogmas were proclaimed about Mary because they directly teach a truth about our Lord (e.g. Mary is Mother of God because Christ is …; Mary is Immaculately conceived because Christ is… etc.). I just cannot see where this title of Co-Redemptrix or Mediatrix teaches direct truths about Jesus. They may be true (properly interpreted and explained) about Mary, but those are not the reasons the Church proclaims Marian dogmas. Marian dogmas are ultimately Christological.

Other than that, here’s my simple explanations of the titles.

Mary is Co-redemptrix not because she redeemed the world with Christ. She is co- (from Latin with) because she cooperated with Christ in God’s plan for the world’s redemption. Every one of us are co-redeemers of ourselves. Why? Because we cooperate with Christ every time we respond to grace. Whenever we do what he told us to do. And whenever we put our trust in him for our salvation. All of these are acts of the will, and make us co-redeemers, for we cooperate an claiming that redemption for ourselves. Mary is co-redemptrix in the same way, to a higher degree par excellence, because she cooperated to bring the Savior himself into the world. But the present-day usage of co- is highly confusing, and for that alone, should not be used in any dogmatic proclamation.

Mediatrix is indeed used in LG, but is not used in the same sense as Mediator when applied to Jesus (which is why I don’t like the term, although we should have no problem with the truth of it). Mary is mediatrix in much the same we we are also mediators. That is the role we play when we intercede for one another. Mary does so again in a more special manner, which is, of course, expected, since she is closest to her Son. We always pray for the conversion of our friends, that they may receive grace, so does she. She is also called Mediatrix because Grace Himself, our Blessed Lord, came into the world because of her Fiat, so Mediatrix does not really tell so much about what she does, but who she is. But again the term itself is confusing, so I don’t think it’s prudent to use it in a dogma.

These, however are my own thoughts, and can always consider that possibility that I’m wrong. I now open my post to the CAF Inquisition for examination and any necessary refutation by those who know more.


#14

Here’s my :twocents: regarding the title of Mediatrix of all graces…

This Mediatrix business had me puzzled for a while too. Where is the Scriptural support for such an idea? I believe it lies in understanding the words of Jesus to his beloved disciple in reference to Mary, “Behold your mother!” (John 19:27) Catholics understand that this was not addressed simply to the apostle John 2000 years ago but it is addressed to all beloved disciples of Christ of every age; Mary is our mother. This view is supported in Revelation 12 where “those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus,” i.e. all Christians, are described as the “offspring” of the woman (Mary) who gave birth to him (Jesus) “[size=2]who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron.” This view is also supported by the idea that Christians are members of the body of Christ; remember in Acts 9:4, Jesus said, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me.” Since Mary is the mother of Christ, it only stands to reason that Mary is the mother of the body of Christ of which Christians are members. So, Mary is the mother of Christians, not physically, of course, but spiritually.[/size]
[size=2][/size]
[size=2]But what does it mean that Mary is our spiritual mother? It can only mean that Mary does for us on the spiritual level what mothers do for their children on a physical level. What do mothers do for their infants? Everything! Infants receive all their nourishment, the milk they suck, from their mothers’ breasts. This side of heaven, we are all spiritual infants. So, on the spiritual level then, we, as spiritual infants, receive all our spiritual nourishment, all our spiritual milk, from our spiritual mother, Mary. What is our spiritual nourishment? What is our spiritual milk? Is it not all the graces of God that are mediated for us by Jesus Christ our one Mediator? So, Mary, our mother, by the will of God, is Mediatrix of all graces. [/size]


#15

[quote=PalmSunday]I heard on a Catholic radio station today that there is a push within the church for a fifth dogma related to Mary. They mentioned that it would have something to do with her being the spiritual mother of all humankind. Does anyone know anything about this? Does it differ from teachings today? Is it something that could become a reality in the near future?
[/quote]

John Paul II was asked to consider it and didn’t feel the time was right. It is not something new and can be found in the writings of the Fathers.

Mary did co-operate in the redemption of mankind. Could God have redeemed mankind in another way? Yes, but He didn’t He chose to unite His Divinity with Humanity in the person of His son. Mary played a Co-operative role in this. Only through Mary was the redemption of mankind possible in the way that God wanted it done through the Incarnation.

We do receive all graces through Mary! In the sense that we received the source of ALL grace CHRIST through Mary.


#16

Some in the Church want to declare Mary as co-Redemptrix or a Mediatrix because Mary shared in the redemptive process, as mother to Jesus and she shared in His suffering by having to endure the torment of having to watch her Son be tortured and killed by the Romans and the mob.

I have absolutely no problem with any of the thinking behind these facts because they are all true. However, because so many people will misunderstand what is being said and what is being declared, I see this as having some big problems for some folks.

They will be thinking that we are elevating Mary to the same status as Jesus as Redeemer of the world. While co- is this context really means that Mary was “with” Jesus throughout the redeemptive process and shared in His sufferings, not that Mary experienced the same pain and same role that Jesus did.

My guess is that the fundalmentalists will distort this dogma as they have so many others, and the uninformed or more guillible will agree with them. Personally I don’t give a hoot what the fundies think, so whether this dogma gets proclaimed or not doesn’t bother me.

We as Catholics already acknowledge that Mary has been given special favors in Heaven. We believe that she is the dispenser of all graces, that she is Queen of the angels, that she has been crowned Queen of Heaven, that no one other than Jesus Himself is as close to the Father. The fundies already get their dander up at the mention of honoring Mary above all others, I don’t see this as being any different.

Let them holler all they want, chances are they will be eating their words when they have to confront our Lady for all their insults and ridicule, and that’s only IF anyone lets them through the door. If I were St. Peter, I’d think twice before letting in anyone who denigrates the Blessed Mother, after all she IS the Mother of God. :stuck_out_tongue:


#17

[quote=Br. Rich SFO]John Paul II was asked to consider it and didn’t feel the time was right. It is not something new and can be found in the writings of the Fathers.
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Can you provide examples of where in patristic lit. we can find this?


#18

[quote=JKirkLVNV]Can you provide examples of where in patristic lit. we can find this?
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I will look this weekend and try and find the passages that I read a several years ago.


#19

[quote=Br. Rich SFO]John Paul II was asked to consider it and didn’t feel the time was right. It is not something new and can be found in the writings of the Fathers.

Mary did co-operate in the redemption of mankind. Could God have redeemed mankind in another way? Yes, but He didn’t He chose to unite His Divinity with Humanity in the person of His son. Mary played a Co-operative role in this. Only through Mary was the redemption of mankind possible in the way that God wanted it done through the Incarnation.

We do receive all graces through Mary! In the sense that we received the source of ALL grace CHRIST through Mary.
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That I have NO problem with whatsoever. My problem comes in when I hear that Mary is literally like a “Grace broker,” and like she personally hands out all of the Graces of God to every person. This is exactly what is expressed by the Father in the article listed in the second post.

(I also have a problem when people say that she is mediatrix because she prays for Grace to be given to every one of us and that is why we receive it, because that contradicts the Scriptural and doctrinal truth that God HIMSELF personally chose to give us as a free gift these Graces through Christ, and makes it as if He only does it because He is answering her prayer! If she prays for us to receive Grace AND God gives us the Graces freely, that is fine, but this type of the mediatrix position seems to hold that He gives us Graces BECAUSE of her prayer.)


#20

JKirk,

Found this:

[size=2]The early Church Fathers gave immediate confirmation to this scriptural prophecy of Mary’s true sharing in the work of redemption by modeling the Mother of Jesus as the “New Eve[26] In the mind of the early Fathers Mary was the New Eve who intimately participated with the “New Adam” Jesus Christ, in restoring the supernatural life of grace lost by Adam and Eve. Pius XII refers to this Patristic designation of Mary as New Eve and her intimate sharing in the redemptive victory of her Son (based on the Genesis passage) in his apostolic constitution infallibly defining the Assumption of Mary:

		 				**"Since the second century, the Virgin Mary has been 				designated by the holy Fathers as the New Eve, who, although subject to the New Adam is most intimately associated 				with Him in that struggle against the eternal foe, which, as foretold in the ***proto 				evangelium*, finally resulted in that most complete victory over sin and 				death...."[27]

		 			The intimate and unique ***coredemptive*** 			role of Mary, the ***Woman of the seed*** (cf. **Gen 3: 15**) ***with the Redeemer***, the ***seed of victory over the serpent***, is already 			prophetically revealed in the first inspired text of Sacred Scripture.

[/size]

Possibly the most ancient doctrinal image of Mary in the Early Church is that of the “New Eve.” The early Fathers saw Mary (cf. Gen 3:15; Lk l :28) as having a free and uniquely integral role with Jesus Christ, the “New Adam” (cf. Rom 5:12; 1Cor 15:21), in the redemption of the human family, through the restoration of the supernatural life of grace. [39] As the virgin Eve, through her disobedience to the Father, interiorly cooperated with Adam in the sin that lost the saving life of grace for the human family (cf. Gen 3:6), the Virgin Mary, in her obedience to the Father (cf. Lk 1:38), interiorly cooperated with Jesus Christ, the New Adam, in the salvation of the human family through his redemption.

  	St. Irenaeus exemplifies the early Patnstic understanding of Eve's secondary though instrumental 			sharing in the "**death**" of the supernatural 			life for the world and Mary's parallel (though antithetical), intimate sharing in the salvation of the human race:
  	 				**"...the Virgin Mary was found obedient, saying 'Behold 				Thy handmaid, O Lord, be it done unto me according to Thy word.' Eve, however, was disobedient; for, while yet 				a virgin, she did not obey. Just as she...became disobedient and became the cause of death to herself and the whole 				human race, so Mary...being obedient became for herself and the whole human race the cause of salvation.**"[40]
  	 			Mary's unequaled participation in the redemption of the human race as the New Eve was the universal 			Christian teaching in the Early Church.**[41]**


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