Does anyone know for such which was the first church? The Roman Catholic church or the Copts? I know Jesus went to Egypt. but the Copts have Mark as their first Pope.
By ‘Copts’ I assume you’re referring to the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria. The Coptic Orthodox Church was once part of the Catholic Church. As you mentioned, St Mark did indeed go to Egypt and established a church there. It was fully Catholic for the first 300 years or so.
However, after Patriach Dioscorus refused to accept the Christology of the Council of Chalcedon (451), he was removed from his position. However, he still had a following in Egypt, and so when he died, a successor was chosen, and the episcopal line continues all the way to Pope Tawadros II, the current Coptic Pope.
By the way, there is a ‘Coptic Catholic Church’, which I understand has the same liturgy as the Coptic Orthodox but is in full communion with Rome.
The first church was the church of Jerusalem. The Roman church would not be founded until later in the century, but was already defintely in place by 58, and quite likely by 51.
Jesus did not found a church in Egypt; he was too young to do that.
So this “Church of Jerusalem” taught all we do? As in the sacraments anyway? Was the Didache around then?
Christ established His Church at Pentecost in Jerusalem, with Simon Peter as its’ earthly head. It was, and is, One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. There were no First, second, third, fourth churches. Our Lord did not create a “Roman Church” or an Egyptian Church. The schisms which have divided the Church’s communion are the work of the devil. We should all be working for the restoration of full communion of the Apostolic Churches.
Well yes I believe in full communion. So Peter was Pope before Mark? My Pastor told me the other day When I said I have heard Jesus might be Essene that that community wasn’t around til after him. But I have heard all the book in the Bible we have except Esther was in those scrolls (Dead sea scrolls) and they had something similar to the Didache.
The Didache was written about 110 AD, but some also theorize about 70.
The church of Jerusalem was established on Pentecost the year Jesus died. So obviously, no such document existed then.
Mark was never Pope, if by Pope you mean the holder of the Primacy. That has always been held by Peter, and after Peter, that was passed on to the Bishops of Rome.
The Coptic Patriarch that traces his lineage to Mark also holds the title Pope, but not even he claims the same Primacy as Peter. Pope simply means “Father.” In that sense, Mark was Pope of Alexandria, but not a successor of St. Peter in the Primacy.
I have been told the Didache was before any scriptures, or at least any Bible. The scriptures were wrote as the Apostles were being killed.
You are probably confusing the “Didache” document with the “didache”, the Greek word for teaching. From the beginning of the Church, all the faithful had was Tradition, in the form of the Apostolic didache - teaching.
Oh I see. I also heard some churches had some gospels or epistles. Others had others, But Bible would’ve came Damsus right?
I read that the Patriarch of Alexandria used the title ‘Pope’ before the Bishop of Rome. However, this does not detract from the Bishop of Rome’s primacy as there are many Church Fathers that attest to it.
The current head of the Coptic Orthodox Church is Pope Tawadros II. He does not claim any jurisdiction outside of his own church, as I understand it.
The previous Coptic Pope, Shenouda III, wrote a number of short books on various issues of faith. His book *Comparative Theology *is a good defense of Orthodox (and Catholic) teachings. I’ve found his defense of tradition to be very good.
Jews and Jewish proselytes, visiting from Egypt and Rome, heard the Apostles preach in Jerusalem on Pentecost. (Acts 2:10) Presumably some of them converted to Christianity and then returned to their native place. Since Jerusalem is closer to Egypt than it is to Rome, I suppose Christians arrived in Egypt before Rome.
So Pentecost that we celebrate was the Church in Jerusalem? My very early history is scanty. We where in the Synagogues and assume perhaps not the Temple. Then they kicked us out and they met in houses. Then the persecutions started and they met in the catacombs with the relics of the martyrs. Were the Copts connected with the Catholic Church? I suppose Jesus could’ve sent some to Egypt to start a church there. He can do as he pleases.
Actually the Coptic Church were originally part and the same with the Catholic Church. Tradition is that it was founded by St Mark AD42 but he did not use the title pope. That was only used in Alexandria, the seat of the head of the Coptic Church only from the third century and only as a local honorific and not in the same sense as the Catholic Pope. The break only happened in 451 AD from a Christological dispute which most church leaders on both sides agree is no longer relevant.
No, it is unlikely that there was any Church started when the Holy Family fled to Egypt nor was there any record of Jesus sending missionaries to Egypt or anywhere outside Palestine for that matter. Basically there was no Church anywhere until Pentecost Day. That is why we call Pentecost Day the birthday of the Church.
The early history of the Church is a bit like what you mentioned but it is not as clearcut. In some places, Christians initially met in synagogues and then clashed with the synagogue leaders and got kicked out. I would presume in some place the Christians convinced the other Jews and the synagogue became the church. In most places, Christians founded their own church with no reference to the local synagogue.
When the persecutions started, again they were not consistently the same everywhere. For starters, there is no police force who investigated Christians like an FBI. So, even after Christianity was proscribed, it depended on people making complaints to the magistrate. It also depend on the emperor of the day or his local representative. In many places in most times Christians were just ignored and left in peace. Occasionally, there would be a wave of persecutions: sometimes just locally sometimes empire wide. Only at the turn of the fourth century was there a truly fearful and oppressive persecution by a very competent emperor. So, yes while the having mass in the catacombs is a very romantic picture (and I tell it often), but more often then not Christians had masses in homes even during persecutions.
I know Nero is always mentioned and the Circuses. And they cut people’s stomaches open and the birds ate from the stomachs. It seems I remember a Christian that ran into the circus and screamed and told everyone it was wrong and they tortured him and people began to leave the Circuses. Then they ended, the circuses.
At the last supper of all places, an argument broke out among the apostles, as to WHO among THEM is the greatest.
Jesus answers their question and in so doing, answers all kinds of future disagreements over the issue of one of THEM really IS the greatest among the other apostles. And that Satan is the one who got them in the argument in the first place. He was there during the Last Supper.
That said, it’s important to stress, Peter didn’t seek the job Jesus gave him.
Did your pastor ask you where you Got your information?
Ah yes Nero. Yes, Nero was quite a cad and the 666 in the Book of Revelation really refers to Nero. But we do owe our separate religion to him. Until Nero, Christianity was always seen as a sect of Judaism. Then the fire of Rome happened and many people blamed the unpopular Nero. So Nero blamed the Christians, as separate from the Jews. That was the first persecution - short lived and not that effective. But nevertheless it went down in Christian consciousness because that was what turned us from a Jewish sect into a religion in our own right and also turning us from a protected religion (which Judaism was) into uncivil traitors who caused the Great Fire and whose refusal to pay homage to the gods removed divine protection on the nation and led to the disasters that befell the empire.
No this was during Absolution. he doesn’t really say too much there. And it was an Apt. right before Mass. We are having now during Lent absolutions during Holy Hour. Perhaps some that founded there community heard of him or had some kind of “tie” before the community was founded. I don’t suppose it matters.
If Nero is the one mentioned in the Apocalypse or “Revelation”; then what would be its’ date? I was thinking these scriptures where around 70 AD. And no later and they must not be. But Nero was Emperor from 54 to about 68 if I am correct. So would that make Revelation between 54 and 68? IDK,.Might someone? The Qumran scrolls are indeed interesting. I think they affect Catholics and Christianity at large myself too. Not just scholars of religion.