First Latin High Mass -- Questions

Greetings! I participated in my first Latin High Mass today (Solemnity of the Ephiphany of the Lord - Jan. 2)(1962 Missal) . Although I did not partake of Communion since I am RCIA, it was still an overwhelming experience. I felt like I never wanted to leave. The music was a live choir in Latin polyphony. Nine altar boys participated. It was simply awesome. The homily was also great.

I do have a few questions if anyone can help.

  1. Veils. The women were wearing veils - either white or black. Does the color signify something? If yes, why only these two colors?

  2. Vestments. At every Latin mass I have been to, the priest wears the same gold vestment. Is this normal for the 1962 missal? Do the colors not change with the liturgical calendar?

  3. High versus Low mass. Are High Masses reserved for solemnity feasts only? Other than music and some additional formality, how does a high mass differ from a low mass?

  4. Scripture Readings. Is the schedule of Scripture readings in the 1962 missal different than the current missal? E.g., I subscribe to Magnificat. Can I assume that its readings do not correspond to the 1962 missal?

I can answer a couple of these… but I am no expert in the 1962 Missal. :slight_smile: I’m sure others will be along shortly to explain much more in depth.

[quote=dts]Greetings! I participated in my first Latin High Mass today (Solemnity of the Ephiphany of the Lord - Jan. 2)(1962 Missal) . Although I did not partake of Communion since I am RCIA, it was still an overwhelming experience. I felt like I never wanted to leave. The music was a live choir in Latin polyphony. Nine altar boys participated. It was simply awesome. The homily was also great.

[/quote]

Great!! I’m so happy you had a good experience… others will say that “feelings don’t matter” at any Mass, but I say that while they are correct, it is still a great good when you are both there to worship and also feel comfortable being there. :slight_smile: Feelings shouldn’t be your guide, but they should not be condemned either!

I do have a few questions if anyone can help.

  1. Veils. The women were wearing veils - either white or black. Does the color signify something? If yes, why only these two colors?

These are called mantillas I believe, I do not know of any reasoning behind the color. In the old days, all women covered their head, but it was not necessarily with a mantilla – any appropriate head covering would do I think. Someone else may be able to tell you more about the history of the mantilla.

  1. Vestments. At every Latin mass I have been to, the priest wears the same gold vestment. Is this normal for the 1962 missal? Do the colors not change with the liturgical calendar?

I think that the older Missal still had different color requirements. However, since every Sunday has the rank of solemnity, it is possible that Sundays might always have the more solemn gold?? I don’t know. I do remember that black used to be more of a liturgical color under the old Missal, it is only used (very optionally… usually they stick with violet or white) today for funeral Masses. Have you gone to any of these Latin Masses during Lent or on the feast of a martyr?

  1. High versus Low mass. Are High Masses reserved for solemnity feasts only? Other than music and some additional formality, how does a high mass differ from a low mass?

I don’t know about this one for sure… I leave it to other, more wise individuals to answer :slight_smile:

  1. Scripture Readings. Is the schedule of Scripture readings in the 1962 missal different than the current missal? E.g., I subscribe to Magnificat. Can I assume that its readings do not correspond to the 1962 missal?

Yes, the readings schedule is definitely different!! The celebration of feast days may also be different, as many of them were also “adjusted” by Vatican II.

For example, I believe this upcoming Sunday (Jan 9) will be celebrated in the old Missal as the Feast of the Holy Family. The new Missal celebrates this feast now on the first Sunday following Easter (or Dec 30, whichever comes first).

TAN Publishers puts out a calendar and a daily planner that includes both the Traditional and New liturgical calendars. You may wish to pick up a copy if you are going to be primarily attending a *missa normitiva *Mass but also occassionally attending a 1962 Missal Mass. That way you will be better prepared for Mass :slight_smile:

+veritas+

The Solemn High Mass is the unabridged form of the Traditional Mass. A Low Mass is the shortened and simplified form. The Low Mass can be read or sung (*missa Cantata)

*(1907) Catholic Encyolpedia:

"**This high Mass is the norm; it is only in the complete rite with deacon and subdeacon that the ceremonies can be understood.** Thus, the rubrics of the Ordinary of the Mass always suppose that the Mass is high. **Low Mass, said by a priest alone with one server, is a shortened and simplified form** of the same thing. Its ritual can be explained only by a reference to high Mass. For instance, the celebrant goes over to the north side of the altar to read the Gospel, because that is the side to which the deacon goes in procession at high Mass; he turns round always by the right, because at high Mass he should not turn his back to the deacon and so on. A *sung* Mass (*missa Cantata*) is a modern compromise. It is really a low Mass, since **the essence of high Mass is not the music but the deacon and subdeacon.**"

A High Mass will have a deacon and subdeacon. It should look like this picture:

latinmassmagazine.com/

A High Mass will have a deacon and subdeacon

It might be noted that before the liturgical renewal, High Mass rarely had a deacon and subdeacon. What was done is that priests would pretend they were deacons or subdeacons. This is now considred an abuse. The liturgical renewal re-introduced concelebration, which had been forbidden.

[quote=katherine2]It might be noted that before the liturgical renewal, High Mass rarely had a deacon and subdeacon. What was done is that priests would pretend they were deacons or subdeacons. This is now considred an abuse. The liturgical renewal re-introduced concelebration, which had been forbidden.
[/quote]

Abuse? Do you lose your subdiaconal or diaconal faculties when you are ordained to Priesthood? Aaaacchh. I ASK you. (Convert apologizes for micro-rant.)

Mantillas.

There is no formal rule about veil color – certainly nothing liturgical. I think in Spain and in European tradition married women wore black and unmarried women wore white. But those were quite large and covered the shoulders to the elbow.

Jacqueline Kennedy popularized mini-mantillas (a veil that covers little more than the head) here in the States. Apparently, she did not like hats much (? because they crushed her Kenneth “bouffant” hair-do), though as First Lady she was required to wear them. Before the 1960s women wore hats mostly. Occasionally one would see those little round doilies or a mini-mantilla.

Vestment color: Vestments do change color with the season. The Mass you attende was a Solemnity, so gold or white would be used.

You are lucky to be in an RCIA program where they don’t expel you for attending the TLM. :stuck_out_tongue:

Welcome!

[quote=dts]Greetings! I participated in my first Latin High Mass today (Solemnity of the Ephiphany of the Lord - Jan. 2)(1962 Missal) . Although I did not partake of Communion since I am RCIA, it was still an overwhelming experience. I felt like I never wanted to leave. The music was a live choir in Latin polyphony. Nine altar boys participated. It was simply awesome. The homily was also great.

I do have a few questions if anyone can help.

  1. Veils. The women were wearing veils - either white or black. Does the color signify something? If yes, why only these two colors?

  2. Vestments. At every Latin mass I have been to, the priest wears the same gold vestment. Is this normal for the 1962 missal? Do the colors not change with the liturgical calendar?

  3. High versus Low mass. Are High Masses reserved for solemnity feasts only? Other than music and some additional formality, how does a high mass differ from a low mass?

  4. Scripture Readings. Is the schedule of Scripture readings in the 1962 missal different than the current missal? E.g., I subscribe to Magnificat. Can I assume that its readings do not correspond to the 1962 missal?
    [/quote]

I see you are in Arizona. Did you go to St. Thomas the Apostle in Phoenix? It was a beautiful Mass yesterday! Fr. Saenz is a wonderful priest.
A Low Mass has no music except for an opening and closing hymn. A High Mass is sung.
The scripture readings are different than for an N.O. Mass. And there is only one reading before the gospel.
Since we’re in the Christmas season, the gold vestmants are used although I think they can be used at any Mass since Sunday is always a Holy day.
Veil color means nothing. Just a personal preference.

[quote=mercygate]Abuse? Do you lose your subdiaconal or diaconal faculties when you are ordained to Priesthood? Aaaacchh. I ASK you. (Convert apologizes for micro-rant.)
[/quote]

Since the subdiaconate is a human invention, I think the answer is yes.

Now, the theological point is made that a priest still has the diaconal charism, but yes, it is an abuse for a priest to vest as a deacon.

[quote=dts]Greetings! I participated in my first Latin High Mass today (Solemnity of the Ephiphany of the Lord - Jan. 2)(1962 Missal) . Although I did not partake of Communion since I am RCIA, it was still an overwhelming experience. I felt like I never wanted to leave. The music was a live choir in Latin polyphony. Nine altar boys participated. It was simply awesome. The homily was also great.

I do have a few questions if anyone can help.

  1. Veils. The women were wearing veils - either white or black. Does the color signify something? If yes, why only these two colors?

  2. Vestments. At every Latin mass I have been to, the priest wears the same gold vestment. Is this normal for the 1962 missal? Do the colors not change with the liturgical calendar?

  3. High versus Low mass. Are High Masses reserved for solemnity feasts only? Other than music and some additional formality, how does a high mass differ from a low mass?

  4. Scripture Readings. Is the schedule of Scripture readings in the 1962 missal different than the current missal? E.g., I subscribe to Magnificat. Can I assume that its readings do not correspond to the 1962 missal?
    [/quote]

Are you sure they celebrated the Mass for the Feast of Epiphany? Yesterday the Mass should have been for the Feast of the Most Holy Name of Jesus.

  1. Color doesn’t matter. Traditional colors are black and white but I’ve seen people where gold or blue or silver ones too.

  2. Gold vestments are traditionally reserved for solemnities or days within an octave. There are the same liturgical colors as well. Red for Pentacost and martyrs, Green for time after Pentacost and Epiphany (now referred to as Ordinary time), white for feasts of saints, purple for Advent and Lent. There are a couple of other subtle differences but for brevity I won’t mention them here.

  3. The Solemn High Mass with a deacon and subdeacon is the complete form of the Tridentine Latin Mass. The simplified form is the Low Mass which is recited. The High Mass is sung, uses incense, and uses more altar boys.

  4. The Scripture readings are different in the two Missals. The TLM usually quotes a psalm in the Introit, then there is the epistle, another psalm in the Gradual or Tract, and then the Gospel. The beginning of the Gospel according to St. John is read at the conclusion of Mass. Your Magnificat will not correspond.

  1. No the color of the veils do not mean anything, a matter of preference, as a matter of fact, in winter many woman just wear a nice stylish winter hat. This shows reverence for our Lord from the Old Testament and as per our Lady who always had her head covered.

  2. The vestments change as per the season. If you look in the missal they usually signify the color. Try comparing the beautiful vestments you saw to the psychadelic ones I see every Sunday at the Novus Ordo, some with doves on them, some with symbols, but cant find the cross anymore, sad.

  3. No, most churches used to offer a high mass and a low mass. In the high mass, all the responses are sung either by a choir or by the Sisters in their habits, beautiful the way they go up first to the altar rail. Today post V2, you usually find the sisters dressed in a pair of slacks and a button down shirt and cant even tell that she is a sister. There are times when you cant do a high mass, I think at funerals and the like. As far as a low mass, usually there are two altar boys who respond to the priest in Latin instead of the sung responses. The Low mass is quicker and more difficult to follow, especially the readings, but still better I must say than the NO mass we have.

  4. Yes, the readings are different as after V2, the Roman Caladar was completely revised, the feast days were changed, many saints which were venerated and which we held with such regard and took readings from for a reading from the Epistle or Gospel, or postcommunion , etc, were from the feast day. Note that the 1962 Missal may line up with the NO missal as it was started to be tampered with by John XXIII, if you want a true Traditional Missal that has not been tampered with by the Modernism of the church, you need to go back to 1948 as there were liturgists from 1948-1962 who were reforming the liturgy as Pope Pius XII was dying and when John XXIII took over he put forth the complete throwing out of the window of all Tradition.

God bless you on your first experience and I can only hope that the Traditional Mass becomes available once again in ALL the churches, as to this day we cant get an Indult in all of New York!

[quote=dts]Greetings! I participated in my first Latin High Mass today (Solemnity of the Ephiphany of the Lord - Jan. 2)(1962 Missal) . Although I did not partake of Communion since I am RCIA, it was still an overwhelming experience. I felt like I never wanted to leave. The music was a live choir in Latin polyphony. Nine altar boys participated. It was simply awesome. The homily was also great.

I do have a few questions if anyone can help.

  1. Veils. The women were wearing veils - either white or black. Does the color signify something? If yes, why only these two colors?

  2. Vestments. At every Latin mass I have been to, the priest wears the same gold vestment. Is this normal for the 1962 missal? Do the colors not change with the liturgical calendar?

  3. High versus Low mass. Are High Masses reserved for solemnity feasts only? Other than music and some additional formality, how does a high mass differ from a low mass?

  4. Scripture Readings. Is the schedule of Scripture readings in the 1962 missal different than the current missal? E.g., I subscribe to Magnificat. Can I assume that its readings do not correspond to the 1962 missal?
    [/quote]

Sorry, yesterday, January 2, 2005 was indeed the Feast of the Epiphany. You can verify this by checking out the Liturgy of the Hours web site, since they still have yesterday’s readings available, but you’d better be quick! www.liturgyhours.org

How can I find Latin Mass in my area?

latinmass.org/

[quote=terrcatholic]This shows reverence for our Lord from the Old Testament and as per our Lady who always had her head covered.

[/quote]

I did not know that (about our Lady, that is). Is that based on a tradition I am not aware of, or was that a cultural norm for women at the time? Thanks!

[quote=Tantum ergo]Sorry, yesterday, January 2, 2005 was indeed the Feast of the Epiphany. You can verify this by checking out the Liturgy of the Hours web site, since they still have yesterday’s readings available, but you’d better be quick! www.liturgyhours.org
[/quote]

Not if the 1962 Missal was used. If the priest said the Epiphay Mass it was an abuse. The two rites are not to be mixed.

[quote=moira]I see you are in Arizona. Did you go to St. Thomas the Apostle in Phoenix? It was a beautiful Mass yesterday! Fr. Saenz is a wonderful priest.
A Low Mass has no music except for an opening and closing hymn. A High Mass is sung.
The scripture readings are different than for an N.O. Mass. And there is only one reading before the gospel.
Since we’re in the Christmas season, the gold vestmants are used although I think they can be used at any Mass since Sunday is always a Holy day.
Veil color means nothing. Just a personal preference.
[/quote]

Yes. I did go to St. Thomas the Apostle in Phoenix, AZ. The service was awesome.

[quote=amasimp]Not if the 1962 Missal was used. If the priest said the Epiphay Mass it was an abuse. The two rites are not to be mixed.
[/quote]

I think the confusion is on my part, which prompted my question about whether the readings differ in the 1962 Missal from Magnificat.

The homily was in fact on the “name of Christ” and the role it should play in establishing our priorities.

Deacons did not participate in the Mass. However, there were 9 altar boys. Responses were sung by a choir.

[quote=trimont]How can I find Latin Mass in my area?
[/quote]

[left]Sacred Heart Church
Located at 106 South McKay Ave., Dunn, NC,
Tel: 910.891.1972.
Father Parkerson will celebrate the Tridentine Mass on the 4th Sunday of each month at 4:00PM

[/left]
[left]

[/left]
[left]You may want to call to verify the time. I heard from someone in North Carolina that they will soon have the Mass every week rather than just the 4th Sunday.

[/left]

[quote=katherine2]It might be noted that before the liturgical renewal, High Mass rarely had a deacon and subdeacon. What was done is that priests would pretend they were deacons or subdeacons. This is now considred an abuse. The liturgical renewal re-introduced concelebration, which had been forbidden.
[/quote]

Do you have a source for this claim? If so, please post it.

In regard to vestment colors, at least in the Nocus Ordo, gold can be worn on any day that white can be, but I do not think that the regulations are the same for the Tridentine rite. In the Tridentine rite, I have only seen gold used for a Solemn High Mass (but not all of them), irregardless of the color of the day. The cope of the color of the day was still worn in the entrance procession.

[quote=spetreopn]Do you have a source for this claim? If so, please post it.

In regard to vestment colors, at least in the Nocus Ordo, gold can be worn on any day that white can be, but I do not think that the regulations are the same for the Tridentine rite. In the Tridentine rite, I have only seen gold used for a Solemn High Mass (but not all of them), irregardless of the color of the day. The cope of the color of the day was still worn in the entrance procession.
[/quote]

It was and is common practice (not an abuse) for a Priest to fill the role of Deacon in a Solemn High Mass, and for a Priest or Deacon to fill the role of Subdeacon. Those ranking below Subdeacon may also take that role. I’m not sure what the “floor” is in regards to this, but I know that the practice is allowed for Acolytes.

As for colors, gold can be substituted (regardless of the type or rank of the Mass) for green, white, or red.

Scott

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