Flavius Josephus About Jesus?

Flavius Josephus About Jesus?

Here is a secular account from Flavius Josephus, a Jewish historian (37 CE - 95 CE):

“About this time arose Jesus, a wise man, who did good deeds and whose virtues were recognized. And many Jews and people of other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. However, those who became his disciples preached his doctrine. They related that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive. Perhaps he was the Messiah in connection with whom the prophets foretold wonders.” (Josephus, Jewish Antiquities, XVIII 3.2)

I have read this passage in Josephus, as well as the charge of it being a forgery interpolated by the Church. But I don’t see anything in the quotation of Josephus to compromise or contradict the Scriptures. Therefore, I am ready to accept it as legitimate.

Jesus was indeed a wise and virtuous Jew. By the time Josephus wrote this, many Christians would be talking about Jesus as such, and probably two or three of the gospels were out.

As we can see, Josephus left out to mention the Hellenistic part preached about Jesus by Christians. And with regards to Pilate, Josephus did charge him with having been the one who condemned Jesus to the cross, and not the Jews, whom the NT is only too ready to accuse.

Regarding resurrection, there is no indication in Josephus. He says that those who related to him, obviously Christians, would say that Jesus appeared three days after his crucifixion. To appear alive after one’s crucifixion is no evidence that he had died and much less resurrected.

And for being the Messiah, he uses the term “perhaps” based on the word of Christians who would preach about him as such. But Messiah in the Christian sense and not Jewish. The Christian idea about the Messiah pales before the Jewish concept of the one.

Ben

He did not use the word ‘christian’, he said Jews and people of other nations…

And who said that he used the word “Christian?” Did you read the word “Christian” in his text? That’s exactly the reason why many here misunderstand a thread. They are so anxious to refute that they don’t focus on the reading.

There was nothing to refute. You didn’t say anything. :slight_smile:

He, he, he, he… I got you at the moment you found a cute way out.

Josephus also does not say that Jesus DID NOT die on the cross. Yours is an argument from silence. Just because he didn’t mention it, doesn’t mean it didn’t happen either.

It is curious that he names Pilate as responsible for the crucifixion. However, being a Roman citizen himself, yet still a Jew, he was careful to note that Pilate gave the order, as the Jews had no authority to condemn a man to death.

**Yes, but Josephus says that some of the crucified would remain on their crosses even up to three or four days till death reached them. If Jesus was taken off the cross after four or five hours, it’s only obvious that he did not die on the cross. Mine is an argument of Logic. One does not have to speack for those who can think and read between the lines. That’s what Detectives do best and are proved right at the end.

Regarding your saying that the Jews had no authority to condemn a man to death, how do you explain Luke’s alleged condemnation of Stephen by the Sanhedrin? How do you explain the condemnation of the woman caught in adultery and taken to be stoned? How do you explain Paul getting letters to arrest and kill Nazarenes in Damascus? And so forth? The name is contradictions, did you know that?**

Out of what? :wink:

You really didn’t say anything. You gave your opinion–sort of–but didn’t say anything about it. So what is there to refute? Your opinion. Why would we spend time on your opinion?

You’re hear simply to attempt to refute Catholicism. I’m pretty sure that posting with an agenda is against the forum rules. I’m surprised you’re still allowed to post.

**In your place, I would feel embarrassed because you sound like someone who has been checkmated. **

So your telling me that a Roman Centurion would be assigned to crucify someone and then let Him be taken down after four or five hours still alive. Wow. Ballsy. Your logic is flawed greatly. Also, logic could go the other way to say that there must have been a reason for Him to be taken down, He who was condemned to die.

Second, just because something is illegal, doesn’t mean people don’t do it. You didn’t happen to speed on the way to work today did you?

**Did you know that money speaks volumes? And did you know that the Romans, just like any other soldier, were extremely corrupt? Did you know that Joseph of Arimathea was extremely rich and that the Centurion albeit an officer in the Roman Army was in a tremendous need for a little of the Arimathea’s money? Okay, so take this bag of golden coins, let me take Jesus off the cross and just report back to Pilate that he was already dead, and you will never see us around again. What would you do if you were the Centurion, any different than what he did? I doubt it. **

Wow. You must be very old to have witnessed that happen. A fun story though, but I think I’ll save it for a bedtime story. :stuck_out_tongue:

I play chess. Without a piece on the board, you can’t checkmate.

Even in this last post you haven’t said anything.

:rotfl::rotfl:

Well Mohammed agrees with Ben. Jesus did not die on the cross. It was all a forgery.:wink:

Since you where there and can read minds. You left out the part where the Roman Centurion would have wieghed up the risk. You know. Where he would have thought to himself is this money worth it? Since he would been crucified himself for failing to carry out his orders? After all. thats what happened to Roman soldiers who acted in such a way…

Ben-Your logic is fundamentally flawed. As I said in another thread, the argument that Jesus didn’t die because he was on the cross for only six hours "is akin to me arguing that because life expectancy is 75 years in the US, no children who are younger than 4 years of age ever die. "

In addition, your theory that the short time on the cross was insufficent to cause Jesus’ death ignores potentially intervening causes of death, ie, the beating and His being speared. You also fail to supply any evidence in favor of the “Roman Centurion was bribed” theory. It is simply an unsupported hypothesis.

Regards,
Steve Lohr

Here is a secular account from Flavius Josephus, a Jewish historian.
Secular? It is a non-Christian source but hardly secular as the rest of the sentence states.

As you have said it is thought to be a forgery. Furthermore the passage I have is different. than the one you presented.

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man. For he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as received the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first ceased not, for he appeared to them thereafter again the third day, as the divine prophets foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And even now the tribe of Christians so named from him is not extinct."

And for being the Messiah, he uses the term “perhaps” based on the word of Christians who would preach about him as such. But Messiah in the Christian sense and not Jewish. The Christian idea about the Messiah pales before the Jewish concept of the one.

In the translations I have the word perhaps is not used.

Regarding resurrection, there is no indication in Josephus. He says that those who related to him, obviously Christians, would say that Jesus appeared three days after his crucifixion. To appear alive after one’s crucifixion is no evidence that he had died and much less resurrected

Crucifixion means death logically if someone was crucified and then appeared alive they must have resurrected that would be a logical assumption.

Yes, but Josephus says that some of the crucified would remain on their crosses even up to three or four days till death reached them.

Exactly where did Josephus say this? I have been unable to find it. I note that you say some that does not mean all.

Regarding your saying that the Jews had no authority to condemn a man to death, how do you explain Luke’s alleged condemnation of Stephen by the Sanhedrin? How do you explain the condemnation of the woman caught in adultery and taken to be stoned? How do you explain Paul getting letters to arrest and kill Nazarenes in Damascus? And so forth? The name is contradictions, did you know that?

The answer to your question is given by William Carroll an historian.
I am going to paraphrase what he said because it is very lengthy. Pilate had been dismissed and a Marcellus was appointed his replacement by Vitellius who died and like all official appointments lapsed with the death of the emperor. Gaius appointed a Marullus. Gaois permitted a greater degree of autonomy to the provinces than had Tiberius. . Gaius appointed Marcellus within a few days of becoming emperor but because of the vagaries of sea travel the receipt of his appointment or the general uncertainty about the policy of the new emperor, together with the disgrace of Pilate and its cause, may have persuaded Marcellus not to intervene with the Sanhedrin. To shorten it the prohibition against the Jews administrating the death penalty was temporarily suspended.

As for the women in adultery, it was a trap that failed and nothing more.

I take umbrage at the statement that soldiers in general are corrupt. Generalizations usually are wrong. I have family members in the service and they serve with honor. I find it offensive. Do you have collaborating evidence? What evidence do you have that Joseph was “extremely” rich. It is obvious that he was wealthy but there is no evidence of extreme wealth. Please present evidence that a soldier would take a bribe that would mean his life not just your opinion. No I would not take a bribe. I am surprised that you believe all people put money above all else. The love of money is the root of all evil.

DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.