If “Ye must be born again”, and we understand what this rebirth is. And if we concur the the CC has the rebirth via baptism as being erroneous, how then were people saved from about 400 AD - 1400 AD (as an example) if people did not have copies of the bible and the only preaching they heard was from the pulpit of a Catholic Church - telling them that they were reborn at their infant baptism…
How did people experience (in our opinion) the real “rebirth”? or better yet, know they had too?
First, the one baptism that saves is the baptism with the Holy Ghost. The Word of God states that one must believe the gospel to be baptized by the Holy Ghost. It is impossible for a baby to be believe. THEREFORE infants cannot be baptized with the Holy Spirit. Infant baptism is erroneous. You can sprinkle their foreheads all day long but they will not be baptized with the Holy Spirit until they make a conscious decision to follow Jesus.
Actually, I thought St. Peter said “repent” not “believe”.
I do not understand your reasoning? Where in the Bible does it say that parents cannot have faith for their children? What about the Soilder whose faith was enough for Christ to heal his servant? Matthew 8:13 What about the paralytic in Matthew 9:2 and 6? “Jesus saw **THEIR **faith…” and forgave his sins…
Where in the bible does a new covenant not include everyone the old covenant included and more?
Adam and Eve - Couple
Noah - family
Abraham - tribe
Moses - Nation
David - empire
Jesus - World
What I was trying to get at is we believe the Baptism we need is that of the Holy Ghost. We base that belief on the scriptures. Now if I did not have a copy of the scriptures, I would only hear the Gospel preached at church (aka Catholic Mass…lets say 600 AD). Since they were telling/instructing everyone that they needed to have faith in Jesus and Baptism (infant) then how was anyone else saved?
How did anyone else KNOW they had to have a SPIRITUAL REBIRTH? Just seeking some logical responses without trying to bring up if Baptism is or is not required for salvation…cause we know where everyone stands on that.
So I guess…it is 600AD…here I stand in MASS. Benn baptised as an infant etc… went through all the sacraments (confirmation, communion, confession etc…). But since I have not had what we consider a real rebirth… how were people saved during that/this time?
So do infants who do not believe, are they damned? If I absolutize these passages, then all babies who die go to Hell. This is only if I understand these passages as you are presenting them.
Catholics would agree with the Bible but just not on your particular interpretation. We would say that absolute fidelity to God demands Baptism as we should always do the maximum for God, not the minimum. Not Baptizing babies is doing the minimum required for Salvation.
So is Baptism a good thing or a bad thing, would it be better than teaching your children the faith or should you wait until they ask you to teach them. Is Salvation a gift does a baby have to ask for it or do you just give the gift?
and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
This just made me think…
According to the above, someone can be baptised and still be damned if they “don’t believe”. Interesting enough that the verse did not go on to say… but he that is NOT baptised shall be damned…
instead it said “he that believeth not”…
and of course the normal debate…can an infant believe.
ps…I changed the title to get more responses.
The fact of the word baptized is not in the second part of this verse doesn’t exclude baptism as being necessary. “he that believes and is baptised shall be saved…” also implies that when one believed one was then baptized. This is evident through out the new testament when some one became a believer they (and their household) were baptised.
Look at 1 Peter 3:21 '…this baptism which now saves you…"
Can an infant believe? Could infants believe they were entering into a covenant with God when they were circumcised at 8 days old. Probably not but the parents were aware and made the commiment to bring their child into that covenant relatonship.
By the way I’m a convert from a Baptist background so I know where your coming from.