? For past or present baptist osas


#1

How does anyone get once saved always saved out of the bible I have read it intently 20+ times. If I study deeply focusing on each word I can't get one verse that is osas and maybe 1000 that dispute it. My wife Is baptist and believes it .....it seems like an excuse for sin for so many I know


#2

Yes, and it works for them. It's easy.... :(


#3

[quote="Adamski, post:1, topic:304140"]
How does anyone get once saved always saved out of the bible I have read it intently 20+ times. If I study deeply focusing on each word I can't get one verse that is osas and maybe 1000 that dispute it. My wife Is baptist and believes it .....it seems like an excuse for sin for so many I know

[/quote]

Well is it not the same as "Sola Fide"?

James 2:24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.

Or what about the "Sola Scriptura" idea?
I am going to be uncharitable but that is the most idiotic statement ever in the history of the world.

When was the 1st Bible written down?

Most scholars will tell you that it was compiled around the year 340 ce that is 300 years AFTER Jesus had died and resurrected.

So what did the Christians up to that year used?

Further everyone SHOULD know that literacy was dismal especially in the middle ages very few people could read and write. That is why a "SCRIBE" that is a person that could read and write held high importance in society then.
Not to mention that then the Bibles were written BY HAND, we have to wait for Gutenmberg around 1439 for the invention of the printing press to lower the cost of the Bibles. In fact that was the very first book he printed.
Still 1 Gutemberg Bible would cost the equivalent of 1 year peasant's salary, hardly making it cheap.

Nope they relied on THE CHURCH.

The Christians would go to their church and hear the word much as we do every Sunday at mass.

Timothy 3:15 but if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how men ought to behave themselves in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.


#4

[quote="Adamski, post:1, topic:304140"]
How does anyone get once saved always saved out of the bible I have read it intently 20+ times. If I study deeply focusing on each word I can't get one verse that is osas and maybe 1000 that dispute it. My wife Is baptist and believes it .....it seems like an excuse for sin for so many I know

[/quote]

Adamski,
I am a former Southern Baptist, and it really comes down to intense indoctrination to a "very narrow theological viewpoint," which begins in the seminaries.

How the SBC Has Changed by Dr. Rick McClatchy & Dr. Bruce Prescott:
The Patterson-Pressler coalition changed the role of the pastor in Baptist church life.

". . . .The Patterson-Pressler coalition insists that the pastor is the unquestioned ruler of the church. W. A. Criswell said, "Lay leadership of the church is unbiblical when it weakens the pastor's authority as ruler of the church . . . a laity-led church will be a weak church anywhere on God's earth. The pastor is ruler of the church." In 1988 the Southern Baptist Convention passed a resolution affirming that the pastor was the ruler of the church. . . ."

". . . . .The Patterson-Pressler coalition expects seminary professors to indoctrinate their students to a very narrow theological viewpoint. *Adrian Rogers (the first SBC president elected by the Patterson- Pressler coalition) said, *"If we say pickles have souls, they (seminary professors) better teach that pickles have souls." Seminary teachers who refused to comply were fired, sought employment elsewhere, or took early retirement. Their replacements are indoctrinators who have usurped the place of the Holy Spirit and now presume to make Southern Baptists accountable for living according to the interpretations and convictions of the Patterson-Pressler coalition. . ."
Copyright © 2001 MAINSTREAM BAPTIST NETWORK P.O. Box 6371 Norman, OK 73070-6371 (405) 329-2266. Last modified: February 19, 2001
___________________________.

The result of such narrow indoctrination is that one reads Holy Scripture with blinders on with no concept of the role of Tradition.


#5

=JerryZ;9974359]Well is it not the same as "Sola Fide"?

James 2:24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.

No, it is not the same as sola fide. Sola fide is a recognition that by no other means, by no merit or actions can we come to faith, which is a gift by grace. It is not an excuse to ignore the responsibilities we have as the regenerate - to obey His commands.

Or what about the "Sola Scriptura" idea?
I am going to be uncharitable but that is the most idiotic statement ever in the history of the world.

When was the 1st Bible written down?

Most scholars will tell you that it was compiled around the year 340 ce that is 300 years AFTER Jesus had died and resurrected.

So what did the Christians up to that year used?

Further everyone SHOULD know that literacy was dismal especially in the middle ages very few people could read and write. That is why a "SCRIBE" that is a person that could read and write held high importance in society then.
Not to mention that then the Bibles were written BY HAND, we have to wait for Gutenmberg around 1439 for the invention of the printing press to lower the cost of the Bibles. In fact that was the very first book he printed.
Still 1 Gutemberg Bible would cost the equivalent of 1 year peasant's salary, hardly making it cheap.

Nope they relied on THE CHURCH.

The Christians would go to their church and hear the word much as we do every Sunday at mass.

Timothy 3:15 but if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how men ought to behave themselves in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Not uncharitable, just not understanding what *sola scriptura *means. *Sola scriptura * is the practice of holding all teachers, teachings, doctrine and dogma accountable to scripture as the final norm. It doesn't eliminate the Church, nor does it exclude doctrine. And in fact, properly done, it is a practice of the Church, not the individual. As a Lutheran I am bound to the teachings of the Church, and have no place, regarding doctrine, to interpret scripture myself.

Jon


#6

[quote="Adamski, post:1, topic:304140"]
How does anyone get once saved always saved out of the bible I have read it intently 20+ times. If I study deeply focusing on each word I can't get one verse that is osas and maybe 1000 that dispute it. My wife Is baptist and believes it .....it seems like an excuse for sin for so many I know

[/quote]

All right, here is the proof text.

[A]nd I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. John 10:28-29.

I agree there are many more texts that disprove OSAS but this one presents three concepts that are difficult to disprove:

  1. If no one can snatch them out of the hand of either the Father or the Son, that goes a long way toward eternal security.

  2. If you can fall from grace, then "eternal life" isn't really eternal after all.

  3. If they will "never perish" it seems to present an unconditional and permanent salvation.


#7

We all know there is as many interpitations of a passage as thier our Protestants

So quoting scripture is useless

Since many Ana-baptist claim comstantine started the catholic church can they give us pre 325ad early christian quotes that teach osas


#8

[quote="JerryZ, post:3, topic:304140"]
When was the 1st Bible written down?

Most scholars will tell you that it was compiled around the year 340 ce that is 300 years AFTER Jesus had died and resurrected.

[/quote]

You do realize that the Bible is not a single book. It is a collection of separate works. The Old Testament has been around for centuries and would certainly have been available to the first Christian communities. The oldest extant versions of the canonical gospels have been dated from as early as the 60s AD to 100 AD. While the Bible in its present form was not available, the individual books certainly were available long before 300 years after the death of Christ.


#9

[quote="ltwin, post:8, topic:304140"]
You do realize that the Bible is not a single book. It is a collection of separate works. The Old Testament has been around for centuries and would certainly have been available to the first Christian communities. The oldest extant versions of the canonical gospels have been dated from as early as the 60s AD to 100 AD. While the Bible in its present form was not available, the individual books certainly were available long before 300 years after the death of Christ.

[/quote]

The question is....how widespread is the availability without the printing press? Books, individual books were copied by hand....and take into account....it was expensive to have a copy made....and the fact that very few could read.

The individual books were initially read during the mass...and explained...you can see an example of this with the account of St. paul in Acts, where he speaks overnight.

Factor in also the roman persecution...where copies of the writings were sought and burned by the romans.


#10

[quote="Anna_Scott, post:4, topic:304140"]
Adamski,
I am a former Southern Baptist, and it really comes down to intense indoctrination to a "very narrow theological viewpoint," which begins in the seminaries.

How the SBC Has Changed by Dr. Rick McClatchy & Dr. Bruce Prescott:
The Patterson-Pressler coalition changed the role of the pastor in Baptist church life.

". . . .The Patterson-Pressler coalition insists that the pastor is the unquestioned ruler of the church. W. A. Criswell said, "Lay leadership of the church is unbiblical when it weakens the pastor's authority as ruler of the church . . . a laity-led church will be a weak church anywhere on God's earth. The pastor is ruler of the church." In 1988 the Southern Baptist Convention passed a resolution affirming that the pastor was the ruler of the church. . . ."

". . . . .The Patterson-Pressler coalition expects seminary professors to indoctrinate their students to a very narrow theological viewpoint. *Adrian Rogers (the first SBC president elected by the Patterson- Pressler coalition) said, *"If we say pickles have souls, they (seminary professors) better teach that pickles have souls." Seminary teachers who refused to comply were fired, sought employment elsewhere, or took early retirement. Their replacements are indoctrinators who have usurped the place of the Holy Spirit and now presume to make Southern Baptists accountable for living according to the interpretations and convictions of the Patterson-Pressler coalition. . ."
Copyright © 2001 MAINSTREAM BAPTIST NETWORK P.O. Box 6371 Norman, OK 73070-6371 (405) 329-2266. Last modified: February 19, 2001
___________________________.

The result of such narrow indoctrination is that one reads Holy Scripture with blinders on with no concept of the role of Tradition.

[/quote]

Maybe you see something I don't, but the SBC did not pass any such resolution stating that pastors were the "rulers of the church" in 1988. Maybe Dr. Rick McClatchy and Dr. Bruce Prescott have references to back up their claim but I could not find them with a 15 min google search. Even if such a resolution was passed, it's important to understand the structure of the SBC and the power of resolutions. The SBC is essentially a union of local churches for the advancement of missions. It expresses doctrine by consensus from its members. It does not dictate doctrine. Any resolution passed by the SBC has no authority if the local church rejects it.

sbc.net/resolutions/AMResSearchYear.asp?SearchBy=Year&frmData=1988&Search2=Search
sbc.net/resolutions/AMResSearchAction.asp?SearchBy=Subject&DisplayRows=10&frmData=ministers&Submit=Search


#11

[quote="GeorgeTheWild, post:10, topic:304140"]
Maybe you see something I don't, but the SBC did not pass any such resolution stating that pastors were the "rulers of the church" in 1988. Maybe Dr. Rick McClatchy and Dr. Bruce Prescott have references to back up their claim but I could not find them with a 15 min google search. Even if such a resolution was passed, it's important to understand the structure of the SBC and the power of resolutions. The SBC is essentially a union of local churches for the advancement of missions. It expresses doctrine by consensus from its members. It does not dictate doctrine. Any resolution passed by the SBC has no authority if the local church rejects it.

sbc.net/resolutions/AMResSearchYear.asp?SearchBy=Year&frmData=1988&Search2=Search
sbc.net/resolutions/AMResSearchAction.asp?SearchBy=Subject&DisplayRows=10&frmData=ministers&Submit=Search

[/quote]

The 1988 resolution was a resolution on the Priesthood of the Believer. It contains a number of recitals, but only the last two lines are pertinent to the authority of pastors. Here they are:

Be it further RESOLVED, That the doctrine of the priesthood of the believer in no way contradicts the biblical understanding of the role, responsibility, and authority of the pastor which is seen in the command to the local church in Hebrews 13:17, "Obey your leaders, and submit to them; for they keep watch over your souls, as those who will give an account;" and

Be finally RESOLVED, That we affirm the truth that elders, or pastors, are called of God to lead the local church (Acts 20:28).

I know this was a highly controversial resolution, even to the point of people walking out of the convention, but I have never understood why.


#12

Still no historical evedence


#13

[quote="Adamski, post:1, topic:304140"]
How does anyone get once saved always saved out of the bible

[/quote]

Interesting. You ask how anyone gets "once saved always saved" out of the bible, then later assert that since people interpret scripture in different ways, "quoting scripture is useless." Finally, you say you are looking for historical evidence from Anabaptists, whose teachings, as I understand it, endure today in the Amish and Mennonite communities.

Since you don't want them, I won't quote scripture here, but if you want a short Baptist perspective on this doctrine, you can read chapter 17 of the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith. Though not a Baptist, a fuller treatment is given by Loraine Boettner in his book The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, including a section devoted to objections to the doctrine.


#14

[quote="Adamski, post:1, topic:304140"]
How does anyone get once saved always saved out of the bible I have read it intently 20+ times. If I study deeply focusing on each word I can't get one verse that is osas and maybe 1000 that dispute it. My wife Is baptist and believes it .....it seems like an excuse for sin for so many I know

[/quote]

The vast majority of OSAS adherants do not use it at all as an excuse for sin. On the contrary, they believe that one must manifest the works that befit repentance, and that a person who is truly saved will manifest the fruits of the Spirit in their lives.

There are some very poorly catechized OSAS persons who can be compared to Catholics who go to confession, then go out and commit the same sin over again with no effort to put off the sinful nature. But just as Catholicism does not teach that absolution s an excuse to commit sins, Reformed / Calvanist /OSAS Christians are very committed to their faith, and live better moral lives than the majority of "cafeteria " Catholics.


#15

[quote="Zenas, post:6, topic:304140"]
All right, here is the proof text.

I agree there are many more texts that disprove OSAS but this one presents three concepts that are difficult to disprove:

  1. If no one can snatch them out of the hand of either the Father or the Son, that goes a long way toward eternal security.

  2. If you can fall from grace, then "eternal life" isn't really eternal after all.

  3. If they will "never perish" it seems to present an unconditional and permanent salvation.

[/quote]

I think most of what is in Scripture is not subject to "proof" in the modern scientific method. That brings it down to a matter of perspective or interpretation.

You have generously responded to the OP's request for a scripture that "proves" OSAS, because one did not seem evident to him in his reading. After the fact, the OP seems to move the bar, and say "no scripture". :shrug:

The Catholic position is that, though no one can snatch us out of His hand, we can certainly jump out if we so choose.

Falling from grace does not change the nature of eternal life in the least. Think of it like a river. We can enter the river of salvation, which Catholics do at baptism. We can either remain in the river, or walk way from it, but the river of salvation continues to flow whether we are in it, or not. Having walked away from eternal life, we have the opportunity to return during this lifetime,a nd if we so, we also return to the security that being in that river provides.

Yes, "will never perish" does speak to the eternal and permanent nature of salvation, but as you can see, Jesus is speaking in the future tense here. As long as we are in these mortal bodies, we are perishable. :o


#16

[quote="jrtrent, post:13, topic:304140"]
Interesting. You ask how anyone gets "once saved always saved" out of the bible, then later assert that since people interpret scripture in different ways, "quoting scripture is useless." Finally, you say you are looking for historical evidence from Anabaptists, whose teachings, as I understand it, endure today in the Amish and Mennonite communities.

Since you don't want them, I won't quote scripture here, but if you want a short Baptist perspective on this doctrine, you can read chapter 17 of the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith. Though not a Baptist, a fuller treatment is given by Loraine Boettner in his book The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, including a section devoted to objections to the doctrine.

[/quote]

I think you hit this nail on the head. Not sure exactly what the OP wants, but if he really wants to know the answer to the original question, he will be willing to put in some study, and perhaps have a little more open attitude when people of good faith attempt to answer the question!


#17

Along with the previous verse from John, I think this is the main verses the OSAS base their doctrine on.
Romans 8:35 Who then shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation? Or distress? Or famine? Or nakedness? Or danger? Or persecution? Or the sword? 36 (As it is written: For thy sake, we are put to death all the day long. We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.) 37 But in all these things we overcome, because of him that hath loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor might, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Here are a few others I think are related.
2 Corinthians 1:21 And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, 22 and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

2 Corinthians 5:5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

So I think the main concept is that none of our actions can save us, so none of our actions condemn us. I don't think it's viewed as a license to sin, but a rejection of the need for last rites and final confession so one dies in a state of grace.


#18

[quote="stevekehl, post:17, topic:304140"]
Along with the previous verse from John, I think this is the main verses the OSAS base their doctrine on.
Romans 8:35 Who then shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation? Or distress? Or famine? Or nakedness? Or danger? Or persecution? Or the sword? 36 (As it is written: For thy sake, we are put to death all the day long. We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.) 37 But in all these things we overcome, because of him that hath loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor might, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Here are a few others I think are related.
2 Corinthians 1:21 And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, 22 and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

2 Corinthians 5:5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

So I think the main concept is that none of our actions can save us, so none of our actions condemn us. I don't think it's viewed as a license to sin, but a rejection of the need for last rites and final confession so one dies in a state of grace.

[/quote]

I'm not of a OSAS communion, but I have undetstood that it is directly tied to irresistable grace, meaning that once one is regenerate, one cannot lose that status. ISTM that one can, by their actions, condemn themselves, by rejecting grace.

Jon


#19

Silly question about OSAS:

Do our OSAS friends say when God decides to irrevocably save them?

Should they not strive to lead exemplarily lives just in case God perhaps does deciding toward the end of their life? I understand that God is out of time, but He could chose when (or if) to make the decision, so perhaps we could agree with our OSAS friends that indeed there could be predestination, but perhaps the is a question of when God makes the decision, so perhaps they would be wise to behave themselves throughout their life. :)


#20

I myself dont subscribe to OSAS, but to say on topic, here's a link:av1611.org/etern.html


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