For Protestants: Do you believe in OSAS?


#1

I know not all Protestants believe in this doctrine. There are some who disagree with it, and some that believe in it.

So here is a Poll.

Explain your reasons why you believe it. Use Scripture, your own interpretations.

For those who do not believe in OSAS, you can use Scripture as well.

Catholics, you are welcome to take a join.


#2

Eternal security is also conditional: All believers have full assurance of salvation with the condition that they remain in Christ. Salvation is conditioned on faith, therefore perseverance is also conditioned.[14] Apostasy (turning from Christ) is only committed through a deliberate, willful rejection of Jesus and renouncement of belief.[15]

Arminianism
John 15:5-6 - I [Jesus] am the vine, you [the disciples] are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
Gal 5:4 - You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
1 Tim 4:1-2 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron.
Heb 3:6b, 12-14 - [And we are His house] if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end… Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end.
Heb 6:4-6 - For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
Heb 10:26-29 - For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:23, 35-36, 38-39 - Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful… Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise…“Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him.” But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.
James 5:19-20 - Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.
2 Peter 2:20-22 - For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire."
2 Peter 3:17 - You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked.
2 John 1:8-9 - Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward. Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
Rev 2:4,5 - Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.
Rev 3:5 - He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
Rev 3:16-17 - So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. Because you say,‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked.
Taken from Wikipedia


#3

I’m Arminian also. I think BrianH covered the scripture well. I didn’t vote though… the options seemed odd. Maybe it was just me. I’d have said just “no”.


#4

Come on… people… I was expecting more partipation.


#5

Well, I don’t think there are very many OSAS believers around here. It’s hard to debate something that everyone in the thread agrees on. :smiley:


#6

I see.


#7

Define OSAS.


#8

Once Saved Always Saved = Once you have been saved you will go to heaven no matter what when you die.


#9

I didn’t vote because I would have to pick multiple choice. I don’t believe it because of both the fact that it cannot be supported by Scripture 100% and the fact that I am a Catholic. Both reasons are correct for me, so I cannot vote.


#10

I didn’t vote either; the choices are odd and I didn’t see one that fit. Neither I nor my denomination subscribes to OSAS.

O+


#11

oh good, I’m glad to know I wasn’t going crazy. I thought maybe I ws the only one that found them odd.


#12

Well, it probably should have been just for Protestants and a simple, “yes” or “no”. But I still voted, kind of like Bush and Kerry, not much of a choice but I voted!:wink:
BH


#13

LOL! Looks like we’ll have a similar choice in two years…:rolleyes:


#14

This is a complex issue. I’ll put it to you this way:

Once God has forgiven you of a sinful act, He won’t later on change His mind and unforgive you for that act. Granted that you don’t repeat that sin later, God won’t decide to condemn you for something He has already forgiven you for. OSAS could be veiwed that way. But scripture does say this:

Rev 3:5 He that shall overcome shall thus be clothed in white garments: and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life. And I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.

This implies that those who do the oppisite can have thier names can be blotted out of the book of life. This leads me to say that we can lose our salvation if we turn from God at a later date.


#15

I interpreted the four choices as a way of filtering answers by belief:

(1) Yes: belief Protestant
(2) No: belief Protestant
(3) No: belief Catholic
(4) No: belief Orthodox

To be symmetric you would need (5) Yes: belief Catholic and (6) Yes: belief orthodox.

I assume those options were not presented because they were oxymoronic.

Anyway…as the “Wesleyan” in my sig implies, I voted (2).


#16

OSOS Is one of the many false teaching of John Calvin


#17

By this definition, Catholics are OSAS also as we don’t believe that God will suddenly repeal his forgiveness, thank goodness. Wouldn’t that be nightmarish if he did so?

I grew up Baptist in the south. Baptist believe strongly in OSAS and are very vocal about sharing this theology with others. Some Baptists-not all- even believe that to be ‘saved’ one must accept OSAS. Being southern also means that I have come across some odd theology. THere is something about the south that breeds odd beliefs. We have the snake handlers in the mountains of NC, after all.

THe wonderful thing about this forum is that I am begining to understand that most Protestants don’t believe in OSAS! In fact when one actually gets past the different definitions that we have for the same words, most Protestants have very similar believes to salvation that Catholics have. We do tend to talk past each other though.


#18

If you mean his doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints, I agree.


#19

I don’t believe in it because:

  1. It is not part of the tradition handed down to me (I was baptized by a pastor who believed it, but my primary catechists–my parents and grandparents–were Wesleyan)
  2. It is contradicted by plain passages of Scripture which speak of the possibility of falling away
  3. It is allegedly supported by vague passages of Scripture that cannot be proven to mean what OSAS supporters say they mean
  4. It is contrary to the entire pre-Reformation tradition of the Church
  5. It clearly developed (in the form of “the perseverance of all the regenerate”) as a means of safeguarding the doctrine of justification by faith alone (understood as persuasion that God is gracious) while allowing for a close link between justification and good works (this is done differently and more tenuously in Lutheranism, which does not teach OSAS). I strongly suspect that Martin Bucer, subject of my doctoral dissertation, invented the doctrine, although I am not certain that Zwingli or Oecolampadius or someone else didn’t teach it first.
  6. The version of OSAS you have in mind is not even the traditional Reformed version, but derives from the 19th-century turn of the U.S. Baptist tradition toward Arminianism. It pulls the rug out from under the original doctrine (which rested on the idea that saving faith involved a confidence that one was among the elect), and reverses its ethical implications (in its original Reformed version, it motivated people to pursue holiness as a way of confirming that they were elect; in its “Arminian” version, it makes the pursuit of holiness unnecessary).
  7. The practical fruits of this later, currently more popular version of the doctrine are almost uniformly bad. It accentuates all the worst aspects of a “sola fide” doctrine of salvation and brings to fulfillment all the gloomy predictions of Catholics about the immoral tendencies of Luther’s teaching (of course, Luther can’t be blamed for a doctrine he did not teach!). It gives rise to a fundamentally amoral view of the Christian life.
  8. Last but not least, it contradicts an important doctrine of orthodox Christianity–baptismal regeneration. If OSAS is true, then either all the baptized can be assured that they will persevere (which no one believes as far as I know, though Augustine claims that some people in his day believed something like this), or baptism cannot be linked to regeneration in any but the weakest and most conditional way.

In Christ,

Edwin


#20

At one point, I felt it to be true although, intellectually, I struggled with the concept because I also believe in free will. If man is free to choose God (according to the grace given to him by God), then presumably he is free to deny God and, also, to change his mind. If that is the case then OSAS does not make much sense (unless, perhaps, you believe that once man makes his choice God will ensure that man does not fall away).

At this point, I’m afraid I’ve lost my earlier assurance of the OSAS doctrine.


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