I hope it’s OK if I chime in even thought I’m not Protestant. The LDS church sings patriotic hymns around holidays like 4th of July (in the USA). The LDS church honors Mary for her role of bringing Jesus into this world, but does not believe that she has a special role as intercessor in Heaven. I hope this helps…
I am sure you do. It is another chance for Catholics to look down their noses at those comical rustic Protestants in all their contradictions. Aren’t we funny? Let’s all gather around and mock the idiot Protestants. That is what it is all about, isn’t it?
This is what is called a gotcha game, where you find a contradiction with which to humiliate and corner the other side in an attempt to bring them down. What fun.
Well. We don’t sing about Mary. After this week I recognize the Reformers’ wisdom in excising every possible trace of Mariolatry from our services. I thank God for that. Singing songs to Mary in the service, it seems to me, would be uncharitable, like giving gin to an alcoholic. There are repeated admonitions about ‘the Lord God alone you shall serve’. I have seen enough Catholics committed to Mary who are disrespectful to priests to last me a lifetime. If I had a statue of Mary in my garden right now I would smash it after the disgusting spectacle of this week. The threads are gone but the memories remain. The Catholic Church indulges idolatry by singing such songs. That has been made extremely clear.
We do not sing birthday songs, patriotic songs, or anything to anyone except God in our services. There is a Reformation principle of To God Alone Be the Glory, and idolatry such as has been posted here, and still is, over in Spirituality, is the reason. Some people are weak-minded enough they should not be around songs that would cause them to worship Mary, or anything else as God. And the glory rightly belongs to God, and to give it to anyone else is robbing Him of His glory. He will deal with glory thieves and people who worship the creature rather than the Creator.
That is my turn. Now, yours. Please explain how your post lines up with the Catholic Church’s ecumenical efforts over the last 25 or so years. As you are an informed and knowledgeable Catholic (as opposed to such an ignorant hayseed such as myself), you know of what I speak. Or do you? I think such as thread as you have started here is in direct opposition to the desires of the Holy See in regard to ecumenism, but most Catholics around here really don’t seem to care about what they think over there in Rome, what authentic Catholic teaching is or what the Church teaches. More fun to make it up on your own. Thus questions like yours. Do you care what the official teaching of the Catholic Church is in regards to ecumenism? No, because you started this thread.
Hmmm. My comment was more of a friendly dig at Peter J for all of his question-threads that I find strange. Also, I didn’t start this thread, so I’m not sure what your last sentence is about. So…uh…gotcha?:shrug:
Anyway, if you find yourself ready to smash statues (of Mary or anyone/anything else), maybe you’re not the best one to bring up the idea of ecumenism or cooperation? Take a chill pill, man.
P. S. Catholics also believe in the principle of To God Alone Be The Glory. It’s just that we recognize that Mary is much better at giving God glory than we are (it’s right there in Luke’s gospel, if you want to check me on that), and we appreciate her help in our efforts to get better at it.
Wow… you packed a lot of powerful words into that …
. My question to you is if you don’t believe that St. Mary lives in heaven and is intercessor for us, do you believe at all in the afterlife? and the Resurrection of Jesus Christ who lives and reigns with us? if you believe that Jesus has resurrected, is He alone or will we join Him when we die?? Seriously, I just don’t know why this is so hard to understand… And I apologize if that sounds negative in any way, but I really want to understand.
Well we have to mock somebody when there’s nothing good on TV!
Heh. I’m kidding of course. I didn’t see it as a gotcha question when I started the thread, but I guess I can understand how it could come across that way. But I think taking it as mockery is unfair.
Interesting that you mentioned birthday songs … I’ll admit that it would feel weird to me if they were sung during mass.
Finally you mention Rome. I for one would say that I care quite a lot what Rome thinks, including about ecumenism … but I tend not to get into arguments with Catholic posters who don’t, because I find such conversations to be fruitless at best.
I have to speak up on this one. I’ve not seen in my life people disrespectful to Priests but I know it happens Often unjustifiably because disrespecting a Priest is a tactic those use in attempts to put down Our Lord and Our Church… but as we believe that the Priest stands In Persona Christi, we highly respect them! . They are Jesus to us… Yes Jesus… They baptize and administer sacraments to us, we confess our sins to God through them, they Marry us, they counsel us, they help us in our sufferings and healing by anointing us… I certainly can speak for my circles that we have high regard for Our Priests. In fact, what we do is bring them in prayer to Jesus through Mary because Mary holds the Priests ever so closely as the Mother of Our Lord who is also a Priest, High Priest… and Mary is the Mother of Our Church so it is only right that Mary protect the Priest with her intercessory prayers because the Priest looks out for us because the Priest is married to the Church so watches out for the Church as a Spiritual Father to us… See the Church is one Body of Christ… Different Parts of the Body have different gifts of the Holy Spirit but we are all ONE Body working together honoring the mission of the Church… This is Catholic… Because it may not be what you believe, that doesn’t mean we can’t be able to talk about our differences.
Just to put Tomyris’s rant into perspective; there were several topics on Mary this week that were closed and deleted, due to posters repeatedly challenging and calling out a priest, and at times a deacon, in a very uncharitable way. One poster claimed multiple times that “devotion to Mary is required for salvation”, and several others essentially claimed they were more qualified to discuss Mary than a priest who was a learned theologian who specialized in Mariology.
I do not think it is fair to assume ALL Catholics who have a Marian devotion are like those posters, and I doubt Father Ruggerio or the Deacon (I do not know his name) would want anyone to go smash a statue of Mary. But I can certainly understand where Tomyris is coming from.
Yes, it was a difficult week with the Mary posts and it was horrific the misinformation stated by Catholics that would not defer to a very learned priest and deacon. I hope Tomyris will give us a chance that there are Catholics that do know their Faith and are open to correction if wrong.
Which reformers? Martin Luther? Here’s what the founder of the Reformation had to say about Mary:
“The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart.”
“[Mary is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ… She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures.”
So was Martin Luther right or wrong? How do you know? If he was wrong about Mary, then how do you know he was right about Sola Fide, Sola Scriptura or the Canon of Scripture?
As to “the Lord God alone you shall serve,” what about asking for Mary to pray for us violates that? In what way?
You say our Church indulges idolatry, but have you read what God commanded the Israelites to do while wandering in the desert?
“and the LORD said to Moses: Make a seraph and mount it on a pole, and everyone who has been bitten will look at it and recover. Accordingly Moses made a bronze serpent and mounted it on a pole, and whenever the serpent bit someone, the person looked at the bronze serpent and recovered.” (Numbers 21:8-9)
And what about the instructions on building the Ark of the Covenant in Exodus 25? Specifically verses 18-20 where He instructs them to craft two cherubim. Doesn’t this violate the commandment against idols? How about the commandment against making a likeness of “anything in heaven or on earth”?
Lastly on this point, are we not called as Christians to imitate Christ? And did He not fully entrust Himself to Mary for 9 months in the womb, and the years of his hidden life in Nazareth? So if Christ entrusted Himself to Mary, isn’t it fitting for us to entrust ourselves to her following the same pattern? And if God is unchanging, and Grace entered the world through Mary by virtue of her giving birth to the Messiah, doesn’t it follow that Grace continues to flow through Mary?
God will indeed deal with those who worship the creature rather than the creator, but that’s not what the Catholic Church teaches us to do with regards to Mary. We are taught to venerate her. There are indeed Catholics who elevate Mary far beyond what is acceptable, but they are the minority. You’d have an easier time finding a Catholic with no relationship/devotion to Mary at all.
The proper Catholic understanding of Mary is that she is the pinnacle of creation. She is all that we are meant to be as humans. And so we honor her as the mother of our lord and ask for her intercession because we know she is a powerful intercessor with her Son.
When you walk through a museum and see the pinnacle work of an artist, is your awe and admiration of the work taking away in any way from your admiration for the artist who created it? Or does praising his work, especially his greatest work, minimize him as an artist?
This is the proper Catholic belief about Mary. When we praise her we praise the God who created her and gave her a special grace to be the mother of God.
Please don’t misunderstand anything written above as me looking down my nose at a “comical rustic Protestant.” That’s not my intention at all. I seek only to explain the Catholic point of view and invite you to consider some things about your own.
And for EVERYONE in the forums, let us all practice the Jesuit principle of Presupposition. Let us all endeavor to see Christ in one another, and assume the best intentions of those who challenge us.
Having once been a Protestant, I find this question rather insulting. No Protestant dishonors Mary (dishonor = not honoring). They don’t think of her as we do. They think we go over board in our love for Mary. But you are mixing apples with oranges with this question. Our love for Mary has nothing at all to do with a Protestant Church singing a patriotic song.
Basically this week was really bad for threads on Marian devotion, cause some posters decided they knew more about Mary than a priest whose field of study is Mariology. Those posters weren’t children of Mary at all.