For Those Who Aren't Catholic

Dear friends,
I feel God telling me to write this to you and I hope that I do a good job.
I’ve been reading about Lutherans who converted to the Catholic Church. Here are some common themes:

  1. Who is our authority? Which church is right?
  2. Birth control: is it Christian? (the answer is no)
  3. There is a lot of division and difference of opinion among the Protestant churches. This suggests disunity instead of the unity that God wants for us to have.
  4. Mary - what’s the big deal? Martin Luther was devoted to Mary and her prayers have helped many to go closer to Christ.
  5. The communion of saints: Why do Catholics pray to saints? Catholics don’t pray to saints. We strive to imitate their holiness and ask them (who are already in heaven) to pray to God for us and other people.

There is so much more to talk about. I hope that this post helps you. God bless you, dear brothers and sisters!

my Mother my Confidence,
Corinne

I believe **authority **is the key to all apologetics. If you can show that the Catholic Church exercises the God-given authority of Jesus Christ, how can anyone possibly dispute any doctrine that the Catholic Church teaches?

And fortunately (for Catholic apologists), it’s MUCH easier to promote the idea of Catholic **authority **than it is to defend doctrines concerning Mary or the Saints.

[quote=DavidFilmer]I believe authority is the key to all apologetics. If you can show that the Catholic Church exercises the God-given authority of Jesus Christ, how can anyone possibly dispute any doctrine that the Catholic Church teaches?

And fortunately (for Catholic apologists), it’s MUCH easier to promote the idea of Catholic **authority **than it is to defend doctrines concerning Mary or the Saints.
[/quote]

Granted, I have always agreed by the whole banister of Sola Fide or Sola Scriptura that apologetics needs to deal with authority. For the original Reformers who broke away from the Church, I can sadly see echoes of a famous line “I will not serve.” Why do a lot of Protestants stay out of the Church??? Authority lies underneath most of the pains, barbs and stories because they want the Church to change so that they don’t have to and this applies to many cafeteria Catholics as well. Authority is the lynchpin in my humble opinion. Thanks and God Bless.

[quote=slinky1882]Granted, I have always agreed by the whole banister of Sola Fide or Sola Scriptura that apologetics needs to deal with authority. For the original Reformers who broke away from the Church, I can sadly see echoes of a famous line “I will not serve.” Why do a lot of Protestants stay out of the Church??? Authority lies underneath most of the pains, barbs and stories because they want the Church to change so that they don’t have to and this applies to many cafeteria Catholics as well. Authority is the lynchpin in my humble opinion. Thanks and God Bless.
[/quote]

When I think about Martin Luther, I’m struck by his arrogance and pride. Catholics are called to submit to Christ and the Church He created for us - that’s obedience, which requires humility. Sure, I might not like some of the things that she does (I didn’t understand why women can’t be priests until a year or so ago, for example), but the more I learn about her teachings, the better I feel and the closer I get to God.

my Mother my Confidence,
Corinne

“Arrogance” is an interesting word.

To arrogate is to take to oneself an authority
that is not rightfully yours.

The American Revolution was seen by British
authorities as an act of arrogance.
Mahatma Ghadi was viewed as arrogant.
Jeanne d’Arc was seen as arrogant by
the bishop
John of the Cross was seen as arrogant by his
superiors

So, there are assertions declaring arrogance,
and then there is arrogance in reality.

My favorite in modern times? Liturgical
reformers who were arrogant enough to
gut the liturgical expression cleaved to
for centuries.

reen12

[quote=coralewisjr]When I think about Martin Luther, I’m struck by his arrogance and pride. Catholics are called to submit to Christ and the Church He created for us - that’s obedience, which requires humility. Sure, I might not like some of the things that she does (I didn’t understand why women can’t be priests until a year or so ago, for example), but the more I learn about her teachings, the better I feel and the closer I get to God.

my Mother my Confidence,
Corinne
[/quote]

Yes, we all struggle with arrogance more than any of us would like to admit I imagine. Sin is basically saying I am going to do it my way and an attack on legitimate authority. Thanks and God Bless.

[quote=reen12]“Arrogance” is an interesting word.

To arrogate is to take to oneself an authority
that is not rightfully yours.

The American Revolution was seen by British
authorities as an act of arrogance.
Mahatma Ghadi was viewed as arrogant.
Jeanne d’Arc was seen as arrogant by
the bishop
John of the Cross was seen as arrogant by his
superiors

So, there are assertions declaring arrogance,
and then there is arrogance in reality.

My favorite in modern times? Liturgical
reformers who were arrogant enough to
gut the liturgical expression cleaved to
for centuries.

reen12
[/quote]

Yes, the Liturgical reformers had a problem with authority too. By your definition above, many liturgists took authority that wasn’t theirs in the first place. And they are still fighting tooth and nail to keep it. As long as sin is around, arrogance will follow. Thanks and God Bless.

[quote=coralewisjr]When I think about Martin Luther, I’m struck by his arrogance and pride. Catholics are called to submit to Christ and the Church He created for us - that’s obedience, which requires humility. Sure, I might not like some of the things that she does (I didn’t understand why women can’t be priests until a year or so ago, for example), but the more I learn about her teachings, the better I feel and the closer I get to God.

my Mother my Confidence,
Corinne
[/quote]

Can you not see the arragance and pride of the Catholic leaders of Luthers day?

[quote=coralewisjr]When I think about Martin Luther, I’m struck by his arrogance and pride. Catholics are called to submit to Christ and the Church He created for us - that’s obedience, which requires humility. Sure, I might not like some of the things that she does (I didn’t understand why women can’t be priests until a year or so ago, for example), but the more I learn about her teachings, the better I feel and the closer I get to God.

my Mother my Confidence,
Corinne
[/quote]

Do you not see the pride and arrogance of those who opposed him?

Surely, and few would have a problem saying that there were grave problems and corruptions within the Catholic Church during Luther’s time, but there are always problems within the Church. We cannot, however, use these problems as an excuse to abandon our obligation to the Body of Christ, rather we should seek to renew it from within. The Catholic Church is ever new and yet the oldest existant organization in the world. 2000 years and we Catholic’s still haven’t destroyed it by our own sinfulness. Yes there is arrogance and pride here, as in every human endevor, but we believe that there is more to the Church than that, there is Grace and the Cross.

Praise be to God who is able to keep us from falling…

[quote=But for Grace]Surely, and few would have a problem saying that there were grave problems and corruptions within the Catholic Church during Luther’s time, but there are always problems within the Church. We cannot, however, use these problems as an excuse to abandon our obligation to the Body of Christ, rather we should seek to renew it from within. The Catholic Church is ever new and yet the oldest existant organization in the world. 2000 years and we Catholic’s still haven’t destroyed it by our own sinfulness. Yes there is arrogance and pride here, as in every human endevor, but we believe that there is more to the Church than that, there is Grace and the Cross.

Praise be to God who is able to keep us from falling…
[/quote]

But didnt the arrogance and pride of the Catholic heirarcy hurt the body of Christ? Didnt it hurt Christs Church? Did it not contribute to the reformation?

[quote=Xavier]But didnt the arrogance and pride of the Catholic heirarcy hurt the body of Christ? Didnt it hurt Christs Church? Did it not contribute to the reformation?
[/quote]

Of course it did, and still does. I’m fighting this on some other threads where the modern day pharisees would have those who are not yet fully in communion with the Church shape up or ship out. This is a spiritually abortive mentality.

A person who doesn’t embrace the Church appears to be in a no-win situation. If they stay in the Church, they are damaging the Church – and annoying the “good” Catholics. If they leave the Church, they are schismatic. Maybe they should just all go throw themselves into the ocean with a millstone around their necks.

The standard response seems to blame lost sheep for getting lost, because the shepherds belong to the right organization and have the right credentials so it must have been bad sheep.

Baaa-d sheep!

Alan

Dear AlanfromWitchita,

quote: AlanfromWitchita

Baaa-d sheep!

That is very funny!

I’m with you on the modern day Pharisees.
They abound.

Best,
reen12

[quote=Xavier]Do you not see the pride and arrogance of those who opposed him?
[/quote]

Oh yeah… and Luther was some sort of saint? He supported the massacre of peasants for cryin’ out Xavier and was a mental case… The church was RIGHT to oppose Luther. Simple as that.
Talk about pride and arrogance! Listen to Luther’s own words:
“You tell me what a great row the Papists are making because the word ‘alone’ is not in the text of Paul If your Papist makes such an unnecessary row about the word ‘alone’, say right out to him: ‘Dr. Martin Luther will have it so, and say: Papists and asses are one and the same thing’ I will have it so, and I order it to be so, and my will is raeson enough. I know that very well the word 'alone is not in the Latin and Greek text, and it was not necessary for the Papists to teach me that.” (John L. Stoddard’s Rebuilding a Lost Faith TAN Books, 1990)

Then Listen again:
" I hate Esther and 2nd Maccabees so much that I wish they did not exist; they contain too much Judaism and no little hrathen vice." (F.F. Bruce, The Canon of Scripture , 101)

All this because he chose to alter the very Word of God on his own egotistical authority and to support the very errors that he created that had not existed prior to 1517. Now today you want to tell us how cool he was and believe his doctrines? You follow him… I’ll stay with the original Christian church and her teachings.

You are WAAY wrong.
Pax vobiscum,

[quote=Church Militant]Oh yeah… and Luther was some sort of saint? He supported the massacre of peasants for cryin’ out Xavier and was a mental case… The church was RIGHT to oppose Luther. Simple as that.
Talk about pride and arrogance! Listen to Luther’s own words:
“You tell me what a great row the Papists are making because the word ‘alone’ is not in the text of Paul If your Papist makes such an unnecessary row about the word ‘alone’, say right out to him: ‘Dr. Martin Luther will have it so, and say: Papists and asses are one and the same thing’ I will have it so, and I order it to be so, and my will is raeson enough. I know that very well the word 'alone is not in the Latin and Greek text, and it was not necessary for the Papists to teach me that.” (John L. Stoddard’s Rebuilding a Lost Faith TAN Books, 1990)

Then Listen again:
" I hate Esther and 2nd Maccabees so much that I wish they did not exist; they contain too much Judaism and no little hrathen vice." (F.F. Bruce, The Canon of Scripture , 101)

All this because he chose to alter the very Word of God on his own egotistical authority and to support the very errors that he created that had not existed prior to 1517. Now today you want to tell us how cool he was and believe his doctrines? You follow him… I’ll stay with the original Christian church and her teachings.

You are WAAY wrong.
Pax vobiscum,
[/quote]

Was not the papist reaction to the 95 theses and the corruption of indulgences a **major **contributing factor and what followed?

[quote=Xavier]Was not the papist reaction to the 95 theses and the corruption of indulgences a **major **contributing factor and what followed?
[/quote]

I rather doubt that and does that then excuse the neurotic egotism of Luther.

How can you ignore this hotshot hero of yours altered the Word of God and still sit there and tell us that his pet doctrinal error is correct? That’s really ludicrous. The abuse of indulgences was not a doctrinal error that should have caused any of this.

Also Luther supported the slaughter of thousands of peasants as a spiritual leader…you see this as a valid leader of Christians? He’s no better than the worst of his opponents within the church and the fact that his doctrines are Biblical errors and have no history in Christianity prior to his appearance shows that he brought new winds of errant doctrine into Christainity.

Keep it…

[quote=Church Militant]I rather doubt that and does that then excuse the neurotic egotism of Luther.

How can you ignore this hotshot hero of yours altered the Word of God and still sit there and tell us that his pet doctrinal error is correct? That’s really ludicrous. The abuse of indulgences was not a doctrinal error that should have caused any of this.

Also Luther supported the slaughter of thousands of peasants as a spiritual leader…you see this as a valid leader of Christians? He’s no better than the worst of his opponents within the church and the fact that his doctrines are Biblical errors and have no history in Christianity prior to his appearance shows that he brought new winds of errant doctrine into Christainity.

Keep it…
[/quote]

An enviroment where the bible could only be taught in latin. That some latin texts were corrupt. That bible translations which were not in latin burned and those that made them arrested. That the basilica built in Rome came at the price of indulgences paid in fear by the rich and poor alike. When those that disagreed were pounded into submission. This is what you uphold?

[quote=Xavier]An enviroment where the bible could only be taught in latin. That some latin texts were corrupt. That bible translations which were not in latin burned and those that made them arrested. That the basilica built in Rome came at the price of indulgences paid in fear by the rich and poor alike. When those that disagreed were pounded into submission. This is what you uphold?
[/quote]

Only because those who could read , scholars in particular, read Latin. What corrupt Latin texts? Proofs?

Or is this just more of you a-C rhetoric that has no unbiased history to back it up?

And Luthers support for the massacre of the peasants is what you uphold?
You pick and choose don’t you Xavier…try HONESTY…

[quote=Church Militant]Oh yeah… and Luther was some sort of saint? He supported the massacre of peasants for cryin’ out Xavier and was a mental case… The church was RIGHT to oppose Luther. Simple as that.
[/quote]

I don’t know about Luther, but let’s face it. If he’s going to make a new church, you’d think he’d do something original. It seems like Lutherans are like 90% cloned after Catholics except they have to have petty little differences. For example, they don’t “kneel” but they do “sit forward” in the pew. Pulleese. If they’re going to change it, change it.

I don’t know about the murder stuff. I’ll take your word for it.

What Luther doesn’t realize, and what I realized about myself, is that even the asses are a meaningful part of the Body of Christ, and believe me you don’t want them going on strike.

He could have been an *** and stayed in the church like me! :smiley:

I’m not sure if you’re asking me specifically, but I don’t have any desire to go believe him. I do think that if we persecute “cafeteria Catholics” in an attempt to cause them to repent or get out of the Church, then we are encouraging them to go away and start their own religion and try to entice weak Catholics to go with them.

We need to treat those who are sick, not send them away. If everybody who joined the Church were in complete agreement with her, then she would not need to teach anything. If we are firm in our faith they are no threat to us. We will not “catch” their disease.

If you try to root out the weeds from the congregation, you will root out the wheat as well.

I’m certainly not endorsing Luther. Just that there are plenty of Catholics who have definitely made me wish I could start my own Church so I wouldn’t have to be associated with them. I guess that divisive mentality can work both ways. :o

Alan

Instead of “For Those Who Aren’t Catholic,” perhaps a more fitting name for the thread might have been “More Luther Bashing”. :confused:

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