Just wondering because I know this is a view amongst calvinists and Calvin himself, but where it falls short for me is that it doesn’t have a biblical explanation, but also that in a sense Calvin thinks of God working in our time and how we see it, where as God is outside of time and space and not in linear time and everything past present and future is happening now for God. Anyway is there a reason why a soul is destined to hell? Did God just say “sorry Jonny, you don’t’ get to be saved like Jimmy and Susie” or did something happen before the earth began like something related to Satan’s fall? Don’t get me wrong, I know God has certain people predestined for heaven, but why would he for hell and what makes that soul bound for damnation?
Some people seem to believe that God Is Omniscient, which simply means that God knows everything.
I, personally, believe that God Is Omniscient and my view of “predestination”, and “double predestination” for that matter, is not that God “predestines” anyone anywhere but simply knows all, past, present and future.
This is part of the reason that I believe that God has a Plan and has had a Plan since before creation and that God’s Will, which is “that ALL be saved”, will come to completion as part of God’s Plan, in God’s Way and in God’s Time.
I kept all the things I can answer my family aligns their views with Calvin. I am more of a ROSES fan than a TULIP fan, but I think I can help.
I think that on the biblical end of things Calvinists tend to take more appropriate interpretation to Rom9 (I think but I am not going to look up right now) it says that G-d makes some for glory while others for refuse. It says the potter has the right to make some vessels for glory and others for refuse. It says “how can G-d still find fault for who can resist his will?” and it answers who are you to question G-d. Right after that I think it gives an explanation of your second point/?. For your last one he ays to make his power and glory known.
I know that you probably have some sort of context to interpret these words differently. Which is fine, but they believe in a more literal interpretation of that passage.
God doesn’t predestine anyone to go to hell, He’s seen it all before and He knows where they will end up, what their final end will be, their end destiny. Where you end up is your destiny, as in you arrive at your destiny and God simply knows where each person’s end journey will be, their destiny, and since He knows it before it happens, it is their pre-destiny. That’s where pre-destined comes from. Pre=knowing before hand and destiny =where you will end up. God will have plans for someone’s life based on that knowledge. I don’t know why people think predestined means that God determined where they will end up, He just knows ahead of time, He did not determine their destiny.
If you take 2 kids and one you know is sick and dying and the other you know will live a long life, you will make plans for the one you know will live but not for the one you know will die because you know they won’t be there for the plans. You don’t make the sick one die you simply know he/she will die so you make plans for the one you know will live. God does that with those He knows will serve Him and will go to Heaven. They don’t go to Heaven because He made the plans for them, He made the plans for them because He knows they will go to Heaven, just like the sick kid didn’t die because you didn’t make plans for him/her, you didn’t make plans for him/her because you knew he/she would not live.
That sounds really universalistic. If you are you would not be the first Catholic that I came across that believed everyone would eventually be in heaven.
God does not want to send ANY souls to Hell.
God wants EVERY soul to be with Him in heaven.
God does not send ANY souls to Hell.
1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;618 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:619
And throughout Scripture God makes it clear that, although He wants everyone to repent and have faith, not everyone will. In Revelation we read how even up to the last possible moment He will try to save all, but as He reveals to John, many will continue to reject Christ despite all the plagues, and thus assure their own damnation.
I agree that God is omniscient and already knows who will find Christ at some point or another in their lives, and turn from following Satan. They may require evangelization to get kick-started, though.
Thanks for your opinion, but he probably already knew it. The religions tag for the person says catholic.
Did you read Tom’s post? Do you disagree with me opinion of it? I guess I assumed that when catholics post on a protestant thread they would use more common protestant definitions unless like chefmonster they post from the CCC
Usually when I say G-d has a plan I do not think it will thwarted by humans. So if someone says that G-d’s PLAN(all caps really weren’t necessary but whatever) is that ALL(again caps are not helping me understand) be saved. I expect that what G-d has planned will come to pass. I know this statement is said after a statement of G-d knows past present and future, but the statement does not sound any less universalistic to me. Also salvation if I am remembering correctly has already been achieved for all. At least by the catholic definition so the point he is making is mute.I guess I didn’t have to be so semantic about his word choice.
When one has foreknowledge, you don’t need to predestine anything. God doesn’t have a “need” for someone to go to hell. He wishes everyone to be saved but some don’t and reject God. The word predestined has a connotation that God actively caused a person to be in hell. This goes against what we know of his nature. This is akin to saying that someone who wants to love God and obey his commandments but God caused him to seek hell instead. There are many that God need not predestined to end up in hell as they do so willingly. Why would God want to force one more soul in hell rather than one extra soul in heaven? If damnation predestination were to be true, it would also be a get- out-of-hell card for that poor soul by claiming “God make me do it” defense.
Foreknowledge results/effect in predestination.
First of all, the whole point of Calvin’s doctrine of election is that God is outside of time. Election is a description of events from a God’s eye view, so to speak. But one doesn’t really need Calvin for such a position. While the Catholic Church does deny that God predestines anyone to damnation (see the passage from catechism that someone quoted, above), it nonetheless affirms the election of persons to salvation. The effect is not that far from Calvin’s own position: the distinction between the elect and the reprobate is still based on a the constituting knowledge that God has of human beings as their creator.
On the question of why God allows the existence of hell and the reprobate, Thomas Aquinas suggests that it is necessary to show God’s Justice, by which he means the various ends attached to various adequate and inadequate goods that finite creatures can will.
But, at the level of God as First Cause, nothing happens for any other reason than that God knows and wills it to be so. As in Calvin, so also in Aquinas, the operating principle is God’s absolute sovereignty over all things. Aquinas simply objects (before the fact) to the idea that God positively wills damnation. What God positively and creatively wills, for the human being who turns out to be reprobate, is some particular good, just not the absolute highest good available to human beings. If God were to will the salvation of all human beings as the ordained will of God’s own creative act then it would, necessarily, be so.
You can see, from a position like Aquinas’, why several contemporary Catholic thinkers have suggested that it is at least possible to hope that all are saved since there are various Biblical passages to suggest that God wills the salvation of all. Aquinas goes in the other direction, arguing that there are various Biblical passages that clearly indicate the existence of what Augustine (who also has a very robust account of election that serves as an inspiration for Aquinas and Calvin) would call the ‘massa damnata’. They exist for Aquinas because they are not among the elect.
You wrote, “And throughout Scripture God makes it clear that, although He wants everyone to repent and have faith”.
Seems to me that at least one place in Scripture it isn’t that God “wants” but that it is “God’s WILL (my emphasis) that ALL be SAVED”.
Seems to me to be a difference between “wanting” and “willing”.
Jesus even asked us to pray, “…Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will be done, on earth as it is in heaven…”, when He answered the question about teaching someone(s) to pray.
By the way, “damnation” and “condemnation” do not necessarily mean the same thing.
Predestination, in the bible, is simply about God “knowing”.
If one believes that God Is Omniscient than one believes that God knows everything about everything, it is that simple.
There is no such thing as almost Omniscience or pert-near Omniscience or everthing except who is going to hell Omniscience, God is either Omniscient or God isn’t, as I said, it is that simple.
This is at least part of the reason that I have said that God came up with a Plan even before creation and that God’s Plan is unfolding before our very eyes and that God’s Plan will come to Fruition and that God’s Will will be done in God’s Time and in God’s Way.
Tom…not picking a fight,but do you believe everyone will make it to Heaven? Just asking…
Ultimately, everyone will be with God, a tie would mean that satan wins, if even a little, and satan is a loser, not a partial winner, and all of satan’s work will be for naught and this is at least one of the reasons that satan is so upset.
godwannabe’s whole work was and is and will be all for naught.
God’s Victory Is Total.
I do NOT believe that Jesus took ALL of the sins of ALL upon Himself on the cross in vain.
The captives shall be released and the dead shall rise.
Some of those that were but are not now breathers are neither captive nor dead but those that are captive and/or dead will be released and/or rise.
Don’t know all of the details, don’t need to know all of the details, that is the exclusive providence of God.
Although I’m not a calvinist, I do believe in predestination (it’s known as ‘qadr’ in the muslim world). I hope you don’t mind me giving my two cents.
All throughout the Qur’an, Allah’s mercy and wrath are mentioned. It’s entirely possible for Him to have created a world in which all people would be saved, but doing so would compromise His Holiness and Justice. He made all things to glorify Himself; by making all of His attributes known and visible, including His sense of justice, He glorifies Himself.
A God who does not punish sin is a God with no holiness. When He rescued the Israelites from Egypt, He was making known His love for the believing jews, but He was also making known His wrath by punishing Pharoah and his minions. It’s not like Pharoah wound up in Hell by sheer chance-- He was sent there because He chose to live a wicked life. No one sins out of duty-- we [mankind] sin because we want to.
You wrote, “It’s entirely possible for Him to have created a world in which all people would be saved, but doing so would compromise His Holiness and Justice”, this seems to be something that blood sucking, holier than thou human being would say rather than a God that is supposedly infinite in both Divine Mercy and Divine Justice.
Why couldn’t God punish sin and still save?
Seems to me that some think that God is incapable of punishing anyone, that God is only capable of condemning someone for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and…, this is, to say the least, putting quite a limit on God, I would say.
Is it us or is it God that puts this limit on God’s ability to punish?
As it is written, “My Ways are not your ways and My Thoughts are not your thoughts”.
Paul answers this in Romans 9. It allows God to display his wrath.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
[quote=WildCatholic]is there a reason why a soul is destined to hell? Did God just say “sorry Jonny, you don’t’ get to be saved like Jimmy and Susie” or did something happen before the earth began like something related to Satan’s fall? Don’t get me wrong, I know God has certain people predestined for heaven, but why would he for hell and what makes that soul bound for damnation?
Your question assumes that God should save anyone. From the Protestant perspective, we believe the Bible teaches that all of us are sinners and deserving of Hell. That God saves us, regardless of our lack of ability to earn salvation through rituals or works, is His mercy and nothing else.
Those who are predestined to Hell (known in Protestant theology as reprobation) go to Hell as punishment for their sin. Those who are elected to salvation are the undeserving recipients of God’s unmerited grace and mercy.
A fact many over look is that God is just as much glorified by the prosecution of a sinner as He is by their salvation.
God saves people all the time, but He doesn’t save everyone. He doesn’t have to. The people who go to Hell go there based on their own choosing (i.e. choosing to live wicked lives and to ignore God’s calling to repentance). So why does He punish people for ever? [by the way, you didn’t have to write that eight times] …because that’s the extent of what sin deserves. When the life of wickedness is rebellion against an endlessly Worthy God, at what point can man find fault with Him?
A God that must punish sin is a God that hates sin. …and if you say “No! God cannot hate because He’s too Loving!”, I would say to you that God must hate sin because He’s Holy. You see, I love children, therefore I hate abortion. I love honesty, therefore I hate dishonesty. If I love what is good, I have to hate what is evil. So, to paint God as a God who doesn’t hate sin is, like I said, a presentation of God that lacks any sort of Holiness.