Forced to baptise?


#1

I feel like I'm being forced into getting my child baptised, because of the following reasons:
- My wife would like a baptism to introduce the child to the world. It's a formal way of doing this.
- We won't be able to get our child into a school, because unfortunately all the schools where we live are catholic.
- We don't want our child to feel 'left out' when all the other children are getting their communion money etc.

I don't want my child baptised because:
- I want our child to have the choice. There is no longer any going back from baptism. Once they are baptised, they can no longer opt out.
- I no longer believe in most of the catholic faith, and find much of the doctrine offensive (stance on homosexuality, attitude towards women, etc, etc...)
- God granted us our wonderful gift through IVF. I hate the idea of bringing the catholic church into my child's life, when the catholic church would rather our child (and others) didn't exist.

So what to do? I suppose I know what's going to happen.:(


#2

user: I feel like I'm being forced into getting my child baptised, because of the following reasons:
- My wife would like a baptism to introduce the child to the world. It's a formal way of doing this.

** GraceDK.. Hey friend.
That's not an adequate reason. If you get your child baptised you say yes to bringing her up in the faith.**

  • We won't be able to get our child into a school, because unfortunately all the schools where we live are catholic.

That's okay, I don't think they demand that children are baptised. Catholics believe in religious freedom. In my country a lot of Muslims send their children to Catholic schools because they know that Catholic schools give the children a moral code which the outer culture neglects. Putting a good foundation of morality is the only way to have an authentic human happiness later on.

  • We don't want our child to feel 'left out' when all the other children are getting their communion money etc.

That's okay. You gotta do what you gotta do which is to stay honest to your self and your community. If you raise your child to be an atheist she will also be a minority in the world.. she will learn to deal with that.

I don't want my child baptised because:
- I want our child to have the choice. There is no longer any going back from baptism.

It's clear you are not ready to have your child baptised, so don't do it at this time. However I urge you then to actually give your child the choice. Teaching her only an atheistic world view will not give her a real opportunity to make an informed choice for or against God.
In order to give your child a real opportunity to choose God you gotta learn what God actually says. I urge you to read and ponder the New Testament.
The concept of sacredness is the best way for your child to grow up and respect herself and others. Remember that Truth is not a book or a church or a set of doctrines. Truth is a Person. if you know Him you also know that if you follow Him you will have life and life in abundance. Your own ways lead into nothing.

Once they are baptised, they can no longer opt out.
- I no longer believe in most of the catholic faith, and find much of the doctrine offensive (stance on homosexuality, attitude towards women, etc, etc...)

*Again, please get educated into what the Church actually teaches. Believe me, I love homosexual people and I am a feminist, and I am NOT offended at the Catholic Church. That should tell you something. have come home intellectually, psychologically and spiritually when I found the Catholic faith at the age of 21. I have always heard a bunch of nonsense about the Church from ignorant people.. Now I know that Catholic moral teaching is based on true human anthropology, and only in following the law of God can I succeed in human happiness in this world and the next. *.

  • God granted us our wonderful gift through IVF. I hate the idea of bringing the catholic church into my child's life, when the catholic church would rather our child (and others) didn't exist.

The Catholic Chuch is happy that your child exists. Imagine a case of adultery where a woman gets pregnant. God loves this child, but He hates adultery. IVF and other such practices seperate soul and biology, sex and procreation... often these practices means destroying multiple little human lives which have been conceived and then frozen down or thrown away. The Church alone stands up for the dignity and sacredness of the conjugal sexual life as well as for human dignity in and for it self..

So what to do? I suppose I know what's going to happen.:(

Study the faith. Pray to Jesus. Tell him your troubles, tell Him your past temptations to distrust Him, and ask Him to show you things.. Read the Word. Lot's of people act in weakness every day, taking things instead of seeing that they are gifts that must be freely given. We live in a hedonistic Western world. Do you wanna raise your children on "'paradise hotel' and 'desperate housewives' and 'playboy'" or do you wanna give them the Gospel. It's your choice. All I can say is, I am happy my parents had me baptised but I wish they had given me the chance to know Jesus personally when I was a child.. It would have saved me so much trouble in my youth.
You are parent now. You think you can fulfill your task without God? Nah.. You child needs her heavenly father even more than she needs you. When man looses God, he looses also the sense of his human nature as set apart from the animal world.
The Catholic Church, I would say, is the only institution that guards women: says no to porn, prostitution, premarital sex and all other behaviours that objectify women so much in modern culture.
.


#3

Thanks for the response.

Just like to add a couple of points that might not have been clear in my original post;

I'm not an atheist. I certainly do believe in God - just not a catholic one.
I also want to bring my child up with morals and ethics, and give them the choice to be an atheist or whatever religion they want.

When we did IVF, no embryos were destroyed. We only had one embryo which we implanted. None were frozen and non were murdered.

With regards to catholic schools, it's unfortunate but where I live you do have to be catholic to get into a school. Church and state are firmly intertwined.


#4

Neither should I believe in a “catholic god”.
However, I have found no one among the living or the dead who captured me like the person of Jesus Christ.
It was like that even before I became a personal believer at 21.
Jesus is the only God with whom I would trust my life.

I grew up in an environment that didn’t act about Jesus as if He were really present and alive. So I thought he was a person of the past… and He was removed and took no interest in me personally.
When I was 21 I had a conversion experience. I saw people get healed from sicknesses in the name of Jesus in front of my eyes. Since then I met dozens who have seen him, who were healed spontaneously from cancer during the Eucharist, and many lesser sicknesses too during prayer. I even know a lady who died and talked to Jesus while she was clinically dead, until they resucitated her. I have heard so many testimonies from people I know and trust… Jesus indeed lives.
But all these things sound like Greek if there is no faith for them to land on… right?

Since I became a Christian not only does God make sense but the world makes so much more sense to me than ever.
I’m glad that you only dealt with one embryo… this is not how the procedure is normally carried out however… normally many eggs are harvested and conceptions are made, and then these many human lives are destroyed.

Have you considered changing church? I love many Evangelical churches although I cannot agree with them with certain things.

But I think it would be a great tragedy for you to leave Jesus, both for you and your family.
Are you well read in the New Testament? The Word will give you life. Please… give it a chance before writing it off.

As for the Catholic school… it sounds very odd. I am on the other side of the world from you, but if I had a Catholic school I would see it as an opportunity to teach children all good things… also the spiritually hungry children.


#5

[quote="user3856530, post:1, topic:234593"]
I feel like I'm being forced into getting my child baptised, because of the following reasons:
- My wife would like a baptism to introduce the child to the world. It's a formal way of doing this.
- We won't be able to get our child into a school, because unfortunately all the schools where we live are catholic.
- We don't want our child to feel 'left out' when all the other children are getting their communion money etc.

I don't want my child baptised because:
- I want our child to have the choice. There is no longer any going back from baptism. Once they are baptised, they can no longer opt out.
- I no longer believe in most of the catholic faith, and find much of the doctrine offensive (stance on homosexuality, attitude towards women, etc, etc...)
- God granted us our wonderful gift through IVF. I hate the idea of bringing the catholic church into my child's life, when the catholic church would rather our child (and others) didn't exist.

So what to do? I suppose I know what's going to happen.:(

[/quote]

If you're asking on a Catholic forum whether you should have your child baptized, I think you know what most of us are going to say. :)

As for worrying about your child feeling left out when other kids are getting communion money, I'm not sure why this is a concern. Catholics don't make their first communion in order to get money. There are going to be a million ways your child is going to feel left out over the course of his or her childhood, but concern over this seems quite ridiculous and certainly not a good reason to have your child baptized.

The Catholic Church would not "rather your child did not exist". I understand why you would think that, but every child, however conceived, is a blessing. The Church does not agree with how you went about this- no. But the Church also does not consider premarital sex licit either. The bottom line is that we can either act in accordance with Church teaching or not- we have free will. You have a baby now, and that is what matters.

If you find a lot of Catholic doctrine offensive, examine why. Read a lot. So many people have misconceptions about what the Church actually teaches. And Grace is right. I get more respect from the Catholic Church as a woman than anywhere in the secular world.

In any case, the choice is up to you and your wife. Whether your child is baptized or not, no one can force anyone else to believe something they don't believe. Raising children to believe "whatever they want" isn't good enough. A child is going to grow up to believe whatever he or she wants anyway. Children need guidance. I'm willing to bet that a lot of the "morals and ethics" you hope to instill in your child aren't inconsistent with the Catholic Church, either.


#6

I have taken much the same approach about allowing my side garden to choose what it wants to be. It has great thorny cockle-burs, thistles, pigweed…The garden I work so hard to maintain has peonies, roses, daffodils, marigolds, petunias…:cool:

Guidance is a good thing.


#7

[quote="user3856530, post:1, topic:234593"]
I feel like I'm being forced into getting my child baptised, because of the following reasons:
- My wife would like a baptism to introduce the child to the world. It's a formal way of doing this.
- We won't be able to get our child into a school, because unfortunately all the schools where we live are catholic.
- We don't want our child to feel 'left out' when all the other children are getting their communion money etc.

I don't want my child baptised because:
- I want our child to have the choice. There is no longer any going back from baptism. Once they are baptised, they can no longer opt out.
- I no longer believe in most of the catholic faith, and find much of the doctrine offensive (stance on homosexuality, attitude towards women, etc, etc...)
- God granted us our wonderful gift through IVF. I hate the idea of bringing the catholic church into my child's life, when the catholic church would rather our child (and others) didn't exist.

So what to do? I suppose I know what's going to happen.:(

[/quote]

What in the world... What are you talking about with this "opt out" business... Let me make you feel better about this, since it would seem you obviously don't personally accept Christ.

If you don't accept Christ, and particularly if you reject religious faith then what's the harm in having your child baptised? Per this belief system nothings happening but some water getting sprinkled on your child's head right?

Of course, the faith is real, Christ is risen. This is what I feel devoutly, and it's clear to me that your wife feels the same way. Your child should be raised in the faith, your child needs to be baptised. Trust me, if your child ultimatly want's to "opt out" of Christ it can do so at any time by rejecting Christ. God won't force your child to spend eternity with him if your Child, God forbid, should decide it doesn't want that. I pray your child will be raised as a good Christian, so on this note the most important issue comes up.

What is your problem with Christ? Why don't you fully, truely, and completly accept him. You should love the Lord with all your heart, all your mind, and your entire being. So what is preventing you? What's the hold up? Christ certainly loves you, and is calling you now, especially through your wife and child, to step up to the plate and become the best Man that you can be.


#8

It largely depends upon whether your wife is more devout (as a Catholic, that is) than you are. If she is serious about raising your child as a Catholic and you would at least tolerate such upbringing, then I would certainly go forward with the baptism. Baptism is meant to, among other things, take away original sin (so, obviously, earlier is better than later). Would you really want to deny that to your son or daughter of that? Besides, one is not fully a member of the Church until confirmation. He would have a chance to decide for himself while undergoing catechesis.


#9

[quote="user3856530, post:1, topic:234593"]
I feel like I'm being forced into getting my child baptised, because of the following reasons:
- My wife would like a baptism to introduce the child to the world. It's a formal way of doing this.
- We won't be able to get our child into a school, because unfortunately all the schools where we live are catholic.
- We don't want our child to feel 'left out' when all the other children are getting their communion money etc.

[/quote]

does not sound like anyone in your parish is doing any forcing, merely that you and your wife disagree on the obligations of Catholic parents. None of the reasons she gives btw are the ones for baptism. The reason is that as CAtholics you have a sacred obligation to baptize your child as soon as possible and raise her in the faith. Period. If you are no longer Catholic of course this does not apply, but if your wife still considers herself Catholic, she has this obligation, and it is not really fair for you, at this juncture, to object or to change the rules under which you got married and accepted children.


#10

Were you married in the Church? Did you agree to have your children raised in the faith when you got married?

If the answer is yes, then I'd say it would be wrong to suddenly change the rules on your wife when you knew what you were doing going in. It would probably seem to her as if you'd said "yes" to get her to marry you, and then once you got married decided it didn't fit your plan any longer. I know if my husband did something like that I would be furious (and deeply hurt).


#11

not to confuse the issue any more… but I recently read on another thread that once you’re baptized you’re always a catholic. the thread was about someone who had been baptized but was not raised catholic, never received the sacraments, but how because they were baptized, they were still responsible to get a dispensation to marry outside the church. something about how because of the baptism, even if the individual doesn’t believe, they are still held to the catholic standard, as opposed to protestants or non-christians.

if I was understanding this correctly, I can see why someone who doesn’t consider themselves catholic wouldn’t want their child to be “stuck” with the responsibilities of the faith without having a say in the matter.

however, as others have said, the reasons your wife has given for wanting baptism are not really good ones. when a child is baptized the parents and godparents are promising that they will raise the child in the faith. you and your wife will need to come to an agreement about what to do in this case. obviously you are not comfortable with the idea because the child is not old enough to make an informed decision, but is your wife willing to teach the faith? if she was raised catholic, even if she no longer really practices, she might also not want to deal with family members on her case.

here’s something else to think about: children are not capable of deciding what faith they want. they are not tiny adults. people end up with bratty, spoiled kids because they treat them as equals by offering them too many choices. when they grow up they can decide what they want, but as children they need to be told something and it needs to be consistent. I knew several people growing up whose parents were of different faiths, and they were given complete free reign to choose - but they ended up as agnostics because they were never *taught *anything, and that’s certainly the easiest path to choose (covers your bases just in case there really *is *a god, but you don’t have any obligation to all the silly rules).

the only reason I can think of that the school only wants catholic kids is due to a huge waiting list… but I find it hard to believe there are no public or secular private schools around.

hey, I don’t recall getting communion money. where’s my share? seriously, that’s an awful reason to want your kid baptized. life isn’t fair. some kids will get more allowance. some kids will get every new gaming system that comes out, preordered, no less. some kids will get to go on vacation every summer. when they grow up, they’ll probably have at least one job where they get paid less than other coworkers even though they work harder. etc, etc, etc. this is a perfect way to raise a spoiled kid who thinks the entire world owes him something. your wife needs a serious reality check here…

so, after all that rambling, here’s my final advice: if neither you nor your wife is willing to uphold the baptismal promises (teach your child what the church actually teaches, not what you think it teaches, go to church each week, live the faith at home and not just one hour on sunday) you should not be baptizing your child.


#12

[quote="user3856530, post:1, topic:234593"]
I feel like I'm being forced into getting my child baptised, because of the following reasons:
- My wife would like a baptism to introduce the child to the world. It's a formal way of doing this.
- We won't be able to get our child into a school, because unfortunately all the schools where we live are catholic.
- We don't want our child to feel 'left out' when all the other children are getting their communion money etc.

I don't want my child baptised because:
- I want our child to have the choice. There is no longer any going back from baptism. Once they are baptised, they can no longer opt out.
- I no longer believe in most of the catholic faith, and find much of the doctrine offensive (stance on homosexuality, attitude towards women, etc, etc...)
- God granted us our wonderful gift through IVF. I hate the idea of bringing the catholic church into my child's life, when the catholic church would rather our child (and others) didn't exist.

So what to do? I suppose I know what's going to happen.:(

[/quote]

1) Most simply put. Baptism is NOT an introduction to the world. It's more like a protection of the soul. The church as you know acknowledges ALL baptisms, under a Christian faith. Do more research.

2) Odd about the Catholic School/baptism thing. I went to Catholic school with lots of non Catholics. Do you live in a HUGE Catholic area? Where perhaps, the school fills up with it's own population first? Or is this a house rule? This is not a rule of the Church.

3)Again, you don't want her left out because she's not participating in COMMUNION? Or because she's not getting a prize. I mean really, what's it take to hand her a $5.00 bill on the same day... I don't want you left out honey... go nutz?

4) One should make choices on FACTS, and things they are educated on. Perhaps if you choose to have her baptised, you can agree with your wife, that no one is pushing your child towards confirmation until age 17 or so. So let's say your child is old enough to join the Army, she can also decide if she'd like to confirm her faith in God. Please don't confuse witholding information as a choice. Realize of course, that if you present multiple contridicting information, a choice becomes about what feels better, and not necessarily about what's right and wrong.

5) I can sort of understand the bit on homosexuality and such. I have a handful of homosexual friends. Love them dearly. They are God's children too. The church says they are acting out sinfully. That I allow between them and God. As I SHOULD. As I would any other sin. If they try to TEACH their sin (say to my children??? Not gonna happen)... that's a whole nother story. But compassion is the way to go. I have NEVER, as a woman felt oppressed by the church. So, I can't be a priest. And a man can't be a nun... Seems the same that I can't be a Dad, and my husband can't have babies... Big deal. Labels are normal...

6) I can speak to IVF too. As this is how I had children as well. I will tell you what I tell others. And what I'll tell my children should they ask. ALL Children are a gift from God. God was hurt by ME for not trusting that he'd give me children. For my lack of faith. Not ANYTHING to do with my children. At all. I was ill advised, and educated about the process. I blame my blind desire, I hold accountable priests that don't teach otherwise, and written, approved teachings that allow too much room for interpretation... But it's on me in the end. In the end the ONLY thing I regret is hurting God. And THAT is what I've asked forgiveness for. NOT my children. I should have trusted that he'd deliver these wonderful people to my life regardless! There is no tricking God. I suppose part of my penance is reading threads like was closed yesterday further down this section. It's full of such tasteless posts. It's also full of lots of wrong info about IVF. Yet, accurate about what the Chuch truly teaches. All in the name of providing information. I'm better about not getting angry. People really don't understand the situation until they have personally lived it. It's VERY easy preach about things you have no experience with. I have NO desire to hook up with the same sex. I haven't cheated on my spouse, stolen things... etc. And I think I can say... You know what? If a man murders a child, I'm sure I'll have a human emotional response that says, Hunt him down like a dog, and KILL HIM! Don't let him loose on the public. I might even be willing to pull the switch... HOWEVER, I can accept, by the Grace of God, that if this man is truly sorry, and he asks forgiveness of God. I KNOW it's within God's grace to allow it. He knows all of our hearts. He knows if we're REALLY selfish as you and I are called for wanting children AND doing IVF. A comment that's meant to cause more pain, and be hurtful.

I was told once by a person that he didn't want into a heaven that would let vicious murderers in. NOT ME... That's the EXACT kind of heaven I want into. The one that knows that we blow it over and over again, and are still loved. I hope to qualify... you know????

In the end, it sounds like you've made a choice not to be a practicing Catholic. However, you say things that make it clear you are not making an educated choice. I would challenge you to educate yourself first. It's probably what your parents needed to do to help you understand the reality of the Catholic Church. Please don't short change your daughter... You choice greatly impacts her. It should be with all the information available to you today! Just like all the other ones you make for her. (I assumed daughter. the him/her get's crazy!)


#13

[quote="user3856530, post:3, topic:234593"]
....I also want to bring my child up with morals and ethics, and [size=]give them the choice[/size] to be an atheist or whatever religion they want...

[/quote]

Dear one,

God bless you and thank you for coming here and sharing your story! I will pray for your spiritual struggles they are not easy that's for sure. May I comment on what you wrote here?

I have heard often this way of thinking, because it seems that parents are being open and giving their children freedom and not restricting them which sounds wonderful doesn't it? Please let me charitably point out the error in this logic, not that you are wrong but that it may help to look at things differently.

Unfortunately you cannot give your child the freedom to be an athiest or whatever religion they want because this is not yours to give it is a freedom they already have. You see I am raising my children Catholic, and they have just as much freedom as any other human being...they have the freedom to be an athiest or whatever religion they want...

Every human being on this planet no matter how they are raised has the freedom to embrace any way of thinking that they choose as an adult. Our jobs as parents are to guide our children in what we beleive as truth. I used to think in error that I was "giving" my children freedom but this was not true, freedom of the mind is theirs and not mine to give. When I looked at things this way it changed many things for me.

Congratulations on the birth of your little one! No true member of the Catholic church beleives your child shouldn't exist, life is a precious gift.

Prayers for you on your faith journey, I wish you peace.


#14

[quote="user3856530, post:1, topic:234593"]
I don't want my child baptised because:
- I want our child to have the choice. There is no longer any going back from baptism. Once they are baptised, they can no longer opt out.
(

[/quote]

I'm sorry, but I have to give my opinion here, even though I will probably be blasted for it...

You, as a parent, are obligated to educate your children in the truth. If either of you believe the Catholic faith is the fullness of the truth, you are obligated to take painstaking efforts to raise your child in the Catholic faith, which includes baptism, first and foremost! Does your wife want to raise your childrent Catholic? Did you have this change of heart after you were married? I had an ex-husband who jumped ship on me (suddenly, after marriage). I have since obtained an annulment. You, as a parent, are responsible for the salvation of your child's soul, so you better get it right from the get-go.

By wanting to allow your child to choose his/her own faith, I think that is grossly incompetent parenting. That would be like allowing him to walk into a fire so he learns on his own that it will burn him. And never mind the fact that once they become adults, all comfy and cozy with no faith at all, that they are almost surely going to continue through life without any religion at all! What on earth makes you think they're suddenly going to wake up one morning and say "Hey, I'm an adult now! I better go religion-shopping!"

Are you going to not feed meat to your child, just in case they decide later in life to be a vegetarian? How about no medication of any kind, or vaccines of any kind? Just in case they stumble upon a religion that forbids medicine. This method of thought makes no sense.

I apologize in advance for offending your free-thinking, but being politically correct isn't necessarily correct.


#15

It's interesting to me when someone says "the freedom to choose" whether an atheist or a believer.

What I find in my faith is real freedom because I recognize what a hold bitterness, unforgiveness, resentment, and a bunch of other vices has on my heart and my actions. There is a very real slavery to sin that people get trapped into and can't find a way out. Practicing our faith and going to confession helps to pinpoint these traps, break the very real bonds that hold us. Have you ever spent time with an alcoholic who loves to tell how awful their job is, how awful their marriage is, what rotten kids they have. Then they pour another drink. The real enemy was their bitterness, resentment and unforgiveness. They lost their freedom to choose long ago.

I hope you can rediscover the tremendous gifts that the Church offers.

I grew up in a family without the sacraments or the church and it was a dark place to be. I would never go back knowing what is mine for free in the Church. It's a great and true freedom.

God bless and guide you home.


#16

If you don't want your child to go to Catholic school, and there is no other one around, home school like so many others.


#17

You say you want to give your child the freedom to choose but why wouldn't you give your child the Grace of Baptism to choose sin or not?


#18

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