FORGIVENESS


#1

In reference to Luke 17:3

“If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.”
**
How does the catholic church view this scripture? I have read on these post incidents where the church has basically not forgiven individuals or viewed there sin as unforgivable? Does the church in essence condemned them to hell. Was this GOD’s command?

Thoughts?

BIC

LAUS DEO


#2

Forgiveness requires contrition – that is, one must be sorry. If one is sorry forgiveness is given. Remeber, the cry of John the Baptist was “Repent, for the Kingdom of God is at hand.” The word “repent” comes from the Greek metanoia meaning a change of heart.

The Church sends no one to hell – that’s a decision each of us makes many times a day.
Deacon Ed


#3

Doesnt the church deny an individual the right to partake in the sacraments if they commit a unpardonable sin as decided by the church?

Where does this leave the person who feels like he is damned?

The above scripture is clear to forgive, although I agree with your statement of contrition and repentence. It still ask us to forgive.

BIC

LAUS DEO


#4

[quote=BIC]Doesnt the church deny an individual the right to partake in the sacraments if they commit a unpardonable sin as decided by the church?

Where does this leave the person who feels like he is damned?

The above scripture is clear to forgive, although I agree with your statement of contrition and repentence. It still ask us to forgive.

BIC

LAUS DEO
[/quote]

The only unpardonable sin is the one for which no repentence exists. And, yes, the sacraments are denied to individuals who refuse to follow the Church teachings. That is not the Church condemning the individual but is, rather, a medicinal approach attempting to get the individual to return to the good graces of the Church and God. If the person chooses to not repent and seek forgiveness that’s their choice, not that of the Church. Let’s put the blame where it belongs – people need to take responsilbity for their own actions.

Deacon Ed


#5

The Church is very willing to forgive even excommunicable sins

**“CCC: 1463 **Certain particularly grave sins incur excommunication, the most severe ecclesiastical penalty, which impedes the reception of the sacraments and the exercise of certain ecclesiastical acts, and for which absolution consequently cannot be granted, according to canon law, except by the Pope, the bishop of the place or priests authorized by them. In danger of death any priest, even if deprived of faculties for hearing confessions, can absolve from every sin and excommunication.”


#6

[quote=BIC]Doesnt the church deny an individual the right to partake in the sacraments if they commit a unpardonable sin as decided by the church?
[/quote]

This is correct. That is, until the individual has a “change of heart” or is contrite, and makes an effort to ask for God’s forgiveness.

I’m not sure what you are referring to as an “unpardonable sin” There are no sins that are unpardonable if the person is contrite.

(I can only think of one where the bible referrs to an unforgivable sin, and that refers to an outright denial of God. In which case, that person is obviously not contrite.)

Where does this leave the person who feels like he is damned?

It leaves him with a guilty concience and in communication with the Holy Spirit who is urging him to seek forgiveness from God, and make changes to his or her life which will NOT lead to that sin again.

The above scripture is clear to forgive, although I agree with your statement of contrition and repentence. It still ask us to forgive.

We are morally bound to offer our forgiveness to those who approach us with a contrite heart and who are asking for our forgiveness. This can be VERY difficult, especially if the victim endured much because of the error or sin.

God promises us that no sin, no blemish on our soul is too deep for Him to forgive us- if we ask it of Him. And he asks us to do the same to our fellow man.


#7

[quote=BIC] I have read on these post incidents where the church has basically not forgiven individuals or viewed there sin as unforgivable?
[/quote]

Reference please?


#8

#9

[quote=mercygate]Reference please?
[/quote]

Greetings

What is the catholic church view on fornication?

BIC

LAUS DEO


#10

[quote=BIC]Greetings

What is the catholic church view on fornication?
[/quote]

The same as that of Scripture – it’s mortally sinful.

Deacon Ed


#11

[quote=Deacon Ed]The same as that of Scripture – it’s mortally sinful.

Deacon Ed
[/quote]

When or how did the term “mortally” start being used ( I say start due to the fact I couldnt reference it) I can’t find no reference to it in the KJV. Is it named another way?

BIC

LAUS DEO


#12

The KJV might call it “deadly” and I believe it is one of Paul’s epistles that mentions that some sins are deadly but others not.

Scott


#13

[quote=Scott Waddell]The KJV might call it “deadly” and I believe it is one of Paul’s epistles that mentions that some sins are deadly but others not.

Scott
[/quote]

Hi Scott

The Bible says there is only one sin that leads to death: that is blasephemy of the Holy Spirit. It also talks about seven things the Lord hates:

There are six things the LORD hates, seven that are detestable to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil, a false witness who pours out lies and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers. (Proverbs 6:16-19)

BIC

LAUS DEO


#14

BIC,

I don’t think you have a correct understanding of excommunication.

From Catholic apologist Dave Armstrong’s apologetics web site:
ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ71.HTM

The following citation taken from Fr. Bertrand L. Conway’s The Question Box, New York: The Paulist Press, 1929, 205:

Neither excommunication nor anathemas imply the Church’s condemning anyone to hell. That is the prerogative of God alone. Excommunication is a Church law, excluding a notorious sinner from the communion of the faithful (Canons 2257-2267). Its purpose is to warn the sinner of the danger he runs of incurring eternal ruin, unless he repent of his sin.

And from the same web page, Mr. Armstrong quotes from another Catholic author, Mr. Karl Keating:

Karl Keating, What Catholics Really Believe: Setting the Record Straight: 52 Answers to Common Misperceptions About the Catholic Faith, San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1992; reprinted in 1995, #5:The Catholic Church sends people to hell by excommuniucating them” (pp. 17-18):
It doesn’t. Only God can condemn anyone to hell. That isn’t within the Church’s power, and no Catholic ever claimed it was. The Church’s role is to help people to heaven by teaching and sanctifying. Of course, people can ignore the teaching and reject the grace. If they do and end up in hell, they go there by their own choice.

Excommunication is a Church penalty which excludes a notorious sinner or someone grossly disobedient from the communion of the faithful. It doesn’t mean the person ceases to be a Christian. its purpose is to warn the individual that he risks losing his soul unless he repents.

And from the Catholic Encyclopedia article on excommunication, cited also by Dave Armstrong:

Undoubtedly the Church cannot (nor does it wish to) oppose any obstacle to the internal relations of the soul with God; she even implores God to give the grace of repentance to the excommunicated (Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume 5, 1909, “Excommunication.” newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm)

I suggest further reading…

Anathema by James Akin
catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0004chap.asp

And this Catholic Answers forum discussion here:
Does excommunication condemn a culprit’s soul to eternal death?


#15

1 John 5:16-17 (NRSV) - "… There is sin that is mortal … there is sin that is not mortal"


#16

Peace be with you BIC,

With regards to where in the Scripture one can find a mention of mortal or deadly sin, it’s found in 1 John 5:16-17.

*He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask: and life shall be given to him who sinneth not to death. There is a sin unto death. For that I say not that any man ask. All iniquity is sin. And there is a sin unto death. - 1 John 5:16-17 DRB

*If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. - 1 John 5:16-17 KJVA

If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death. - 1 John 5:16-17 NASB

Notice the Douay Rheims Text appears to be missing the “not” in verse 17? I find this interesting. Hmmmmm.

Peace.


#17

[quote=itsjustdave1988]1 John 5:16-17 (NRSV) - “***… There is sin that is mortal*** … there is sin that is not mortal”
[/quote]

BIC,

By the way, the mortal sins St. John refers to are forgiveable. The unforgiveable sin is *final impenitence, *which is an obstinent denial or rebellion against the work of the Holy Spirit even unto death.

Without contrition, there can be no remission of sin.


#18

Dave provided a beautiful (and correct) answer to this question.


#19

[quote=BIC]When or how did the term “mortally” start being used ( I say start due to the fact I couldnt reference it) I can’t find no reference to it in the KJV. Is it named another way?

BIC

LAUS DEO
[/quote]

KJV: I John 5:16-17:
*16: *If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17: All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

“Unto death” = mortal
"not unto death" = venial, that is ‘minor’

As itsjustdave1988 posted, the word “mortal” appears in other translations which are accepted by Protestants. The Greek is “pros thanaton” and “ou pros thanaton.” “unto death” “not unto death” The Douay-Rheims translation also uses “unto death.”


#20

Thanks for all your reply’s. In a nutshell the person is handed over to satan so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and thay person may truly repent? after this can the person come back to the church?

BIC

LAUS DEO


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