France's Macron issues 'Republican values' ultimatum to Muslim leaders

Oh for goodness sake. This is getting into rabble rousing territory. Are there distinct issues with integration of Muslims in France? Yes. Is is going to sorted out by making them into a scapegoat class or asking them to do pass special loyalty checks. I don’t think that’s likely.


What of that? The concepts of the Church militant and so forth are well known.

Religion was the last thing on the mind of Herodias when she had St. John the Baptist beheaded.

Indeed, she however didn’t suddenly jog on into a Tardis or a DeLorean and flip forward and become a Muslim. Plenty of naughty people have come from the religion our ‘own’ groups belong to. You can’t cancel out the fact she was part of a particular background by saying she did something evil. One of the stronger points of the Bible is that it doesn’t pretend being part of a particular faith automatically means you are a great example of said faith.

There is a clear distinction between righteous and wicked in the Bible.

Archbishop Nano made a distinction. And Macron is in the process of making a distinction. I pray for him and his country…France.

What is the goal of Islam? What does history show us?

No the proper response when dealing with Islam

People are defending what they don’t know

I think you know this answer

Have you read the Koran?

An interesting read

I’m not defending Islam. I’m noting what the Church teaches about Muslims and what, as a Catholic, I’m required to assent to.

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I think you know this answer

Have you read the Koran?

An interesting read

No, I don’t know the answer. I am asking.

Don’t all religions that purport to be universal religions call for world domination? Christians crusaded in an effort to spread their religion, and without a lot of the religious wars they fought Christianity would not have become quite so wide spread. The Northern Crusades come to mind in particular.

The fact is that a lot of Islamic rule was seen as a preferable alternative to Christian rule for some Christian minorities because there was generally little pressure to convert under Islamic rule. The Byzantines would demand that Armenian Coptics convert to Orthodox Christianity, while Islamic rulers would not make such demands, preferring to rule as an Islamic ruling class. It doesn’t seem obvious to me that Islam is inherently more aggressive.

Most of the modern Islamic terrorism we see today has its roots in Wahhabism, a movement in Islam that developed very late in opposition to European involvement in the Middle East. We’re talking the 18th and 19th centuries.

Don’t be trying to do a nuanced chat of that kind here on this whole thing… road to nowhere I’ve found.

by fighting? it is in the Koran,

show me where in the New Testament Jesus commands his followers to fight

Fight those who do not believe in Allah and the Last Day, nor comply with what Allah and His Messenger have forbidden, nor embrace the religion of truth from among those who were given the Scripture,1 until they pay the tax,2 willingly submitting, fully humbled.
Dr. Mustafa Khattab, the Clear Quran

or did they crusade to free Jerusalem?

Jesus didn’t command his followers to gain converts by fighting. Jesus’ message was a message of Love, the crusaders abandoned the example of Jesus Christ

here were the options,

“I call you to God and to Islam. If you respond to the call, you are Muslims: You obtain the benefits they enjoy and take up the responsibilities they bear. If you refuse, then [you must pay] the jizyah. If you refuse the jizyah, I will bring against you tribes of people who are more eager for death than you are for life. We will fight you until God decides between us and you.” (Tabari, The Challenge to the Empires, trans. Khalid Yahya Blankinship, NY: SUNYP, 1993, vol. 11, p. 4; Arabic page 2017)

the basis for the terrorism is rooted in their history from the start.


how does what the church teaches about Muslims apply to Macron’s ultimatum?


A converse picture of the direction USA will be taking if/when Biden is sworn into office.

France cracking down

Just 8 more days…

Migrant is not equal to Muslim.

Cracking down and cleaning up

Will not perhaps the temporal power of Islam return and with it the menace of an armed Mohammedan world, which will shake off the domination of Europeans - still nominally Christian - and reappear as the prime enemy of our civilization? The future always comes as a surprise, but political wisdom consists in attempting at least some partial judgment of what that surprise may be. And for my part I cannot but believe that a main unexpected thing of the future is the return of Islam.

Hilaire Belloc

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On Jan 1, 2021 who will care here?

You could be correct but in the meantime…

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