Free will? I dont think so

Then a phenomena created by God still comes from God for the purpose of deception. The result is the same. Deception. Therefore I still retain free will.

Sin as applied to God vs sin as applied to man makes no difference. It’s still sin.

How can I perceive I’m being manipulated into thinking I have free will? If my free will is being manipulated, how would I know? That’s why they call it deception. If I say I have free will and you say a phenomena created by God (barricades) is manipulating my free will. That my friend is deception.

Nuanced or not, if the nuanced influence deceived me into thinking I have free will when I really didn’t then that’s deception in my book.

Since God cannot deceive and no invisible entity steered my discussion, my choice was FREE WILL.

Free will? I dont think so

No Free Will with regard to e.g., Morality - makes zero sense…
only robots have no free will
And beasts are neither moral nor immoral
and we’re neither robot nor beast

FIRST? You Prove there’s no free will - and then we’ll talk

Its impossible to prove it. Bit it still only question, does God know before I do or i am creator of MY future as I believe but He being in NOW is watvhing me and helping. I think its most biblical version. And I think we have to choose and can.

God is always available to point you in the correct direction.

The ultimate choice is up to you / us…

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Name a phenomena that doesn’t “come from” God. And yet we are provably deceived all the time.

How about, as an example: Romans 11:8 " “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, to this very day.” No matter what excuse is applied to explain how it wasn’t really God’s will that did this, the fact of the matter is that God is the one that gave them the condition. God cannot deceive because God cannot be deceived however God is not limited in his will because of his creature’s limitations.

You retain the will God gives you and that will just so happens to perfectly coincide with his.

Is that free? It is if you wish to define it that way I guess.

My point is that sin cannot be applied to God. God has defined sin in man according to his will. However what is sinful for man cannot be applied meaningfully to man because it sets up contradiction within God. So no, the same action which is sin in man is not as applied to God.

Who said you could perceive it? The whole premise is that there are some things that you cannot possibly perceive as deception except after the fact or that someone proves the possibility. After the magic show the magician tells you how he did it. That doesn’t mean you weren’t deceived at the time of the trick. One might consider the trick here is creation itself. None of us have the ability or physical equipment to see reality as it is. In that sense we are all being constantly and consistently deceived by God in how he created our abilities to see creation as it really is.

As we define it…my friend, I absolutely agree. It is a necessary deception produced by how we were created to be what we are.

Have you not been considering all that’s been said in these posts? We ARE constantly being manipulated, and deceptively “steered” by influences we are unaware of consistent throughout nature and our interaction with it. The fact of the matter is, deception exists in creation, in humanity, by humanity, and in and by the natural world as it interacts with us. No matter how you slice this pie, God sustains a deceptive creation. Given our limited abilities, it is a necessarily deceptive creation in that what we perceive as deceptive to our senses and sensibilities as proven through experimentation and assistant tools necessarily exists but not as we perceive them to exist. How do you think we even has a sensation of consciousness? Do we will ourselves conscious? I don’t think so. We are given consciousness and sustained in that consciousness by the creator who also sustains our will, which just so happens to coincide perfectly with his will. :wink: Coincidence? I don’t think so. Did God’s knowledge of our actions and will exist before an existent creation in which these things are acted out? It would have had to. So creation is acting out God’s will which preexisted God’s creation our existent will’s actions. Again, is that free will being exercised by us? Depends on how you define the terms. Call it free until your blue in the face and say it has to be because I FEEL it is but is that proof of free will in humans? I just don’t see how? Then again I don’t know everything of course and may be wrong. But I haven’t seen a solid proof yet, except the appeal to what we FEEL is reality. I think it’s been demonstrated that reality is being constantly manipulated however, kind of defeating the premise that what we FEEL is true IS true.

:slightly_smiling_face: I’m afraid that quite a bit of what God has been perceived as doing doesn’t make a whole bunch of sense from our perspective. His absolute Goodness, ability, etc. and existent evil. The Church chalks these things up mostly to “divine mystery”. Oh it has its theological and philosophical rationalizations that attempt to “explain” why this or that is so but at the end of the explanatory road we mostly end up right back where we started. With more questions than answers. What is Good and moral is what God defines as such for man. Defining morality and then applying it as a descriptor of the actions of an actor makes as much sense as anything else in creation. Thou shalt not murder, and then God does something that looks exactly like murder but isn’t. Love is not jealous, so scripture says. Then we have a God that is a very jealous God. We can’t have morality without free will, then God creates creatures who’s will is his own and then defines those creature’s will’s actions according to what he deems to be moral or immoral.

And what IS the significance of this assumption? The “lower” animals act according to the design God gave them. And humans act according to the design God gave them. Whether any particular design be defined as moral or immoral it is still an action acting out according to its design.

According to ourselves. According to God we may be both. What about a robot can’t we compare to ourselves as we relate to God? And as for being a beast…well I know some people I’d take a common mongrel over for company and get more moral action out of than them any time.

I’ve said this before…I don’t think you can definitively prove no free will in humans. You CAN however prove that any particular proof of necessity presented here which states that free will in humans must exist can be in error as to being a proof.
So…since there has been premises set forth here claiming the necessity of free will in man given certain criteria or necessities of creation and I have presented counter arguments against them, FIRST: show me where I am in error- and then we can discuss it. :wink: Or if you prefer - and this makes no difference to me - if it makes you feel better just believe what you wish to believe despite its potential irrationality or contradiction and leave it at that. As for myself I am trying to get closer to what is true. :slightly_smiling_face:

I think you’re confusing deception with influence.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS NECESSARY DECEPTION (I never heard of such a thing).

There is such a thing as deception but it’s NOT NECESSARY, it’s DECEPTION (believe something that is not true).

THERE IS IN FACT NECESSARY INFLUENCE.

  1. No original music composition without influence.
  2. No original novel without influence.
  3. No original choice without influence.

Yes, we are constantly being influenced but that has NO EFFECT on free will.
We have the FREE WILL to chose the influence we follow. God may at times try to influence us in a certain direction but ultimately we choose with our FREE WILL.

INFLUENCE DOES NOT EQUAL DECEPTION.

I should clarify more clearly. My apologies. When I say…necessary deception, I am using the term as I defined it earlier, that is humanly perceived deception, what we believe to be true but isn’t, yet its reality was set up as necessary to our condition. Where you may call it influence upon our senses or awareness in which what we think is inherently true and correctly perceived is only apparently true in its false perception I call it “perceived deception”. It is perceived deception because the apparatus we have been given is not sufficient to perceive its falsehood while at the same time having no apparent barrier to being given a sufficient apparatus to perceive it in a true fashion.
The question is IF one can be influenced to believe something is true that is not - most people believe they are seeing reality as it really is, but look through the eyes of a honeybee and you see quite a different perception of that same reality - but that same individual could have been made to see an aspect of reality as it really is, then is that deception, what we have been made to see VS. what we COULD be made to see?

Not exactly sure what argument you making here?

Are you implying that you can be simultaneously in two different places, or why stop at that, in an infinite number of universes as the same you?

You’ll have to clarify what you mean. It would make no difference physically if the individuals are the same. Identical twins are physically the same. The mind gives rise to identity however and this is where the differences lay between the persons.
These are the proposed possibilities I’m considering here.
One: The different existences or universes are separate with no phenomena in one having effect or influence on another. In which case any choices made would be effected and only effect those things within the existence it was made rendering it indistinguishable from being the only existence VS. being only one possible existence among an infinity of existences.
Or
Two: One initial existence has given rise to an infinity of other existences created each time a purposeful decision or impersonal cause was initiated. In this case as I’ve outlined above…salvation or damnation would be meaningless if not impossible since no individual would have substantial duration in time but only duration in the moment of the effective creation of a new existence.
Any other consideration would set up contradictions in that existence rendering it impossible to be actualized.

Then… leave it be… Free Will is self-evident and requires no proof.

How can I leave be what I never bothered to begin with? I think if you read my posts my arguments concern what has been proposed as proof of free will…your “self-evidence” is one such contested notion. At times I wonder that people get so desperate to retain a comforting notion that they refuse to consider any counter arguments as valid even if they cannot rationally defend against them. And sometimes they get so concerned for the security of their own beliefs that they miss presenting actually valid supporting arguments for those beliefs. So far, I’ve gathered that the entirety of the proof of free will in humans, presented in this thread, rests on the FEELING that we have it thus making it self evident that we do. I’ve presented several problems concerning free will in humans as defined herewith and have yet to see or at least been helped to understand a coherent, rational answer to these problems. It would seem that your demanding a higher standard for proving that free will doesn’t exist than what you use to prove it does.
I’ve presented examples of how our FEELINGS and notions of what we perceive as real are not always accurate. I have yet to get a counterargument that is not demonstrably refutable.
So if free will in humans exists as presented here it does require proof since the proposals which purpose its necessary existence in humans as defined have been presented and been shown to be at the very least incomplete. As I’ve noted above - to end on a poetic note - What you FEEL is real and what is ACTUALLY real is a different deal.

Yeah free will don’t have to prove.
Do you think that if God DID EVERYTHING TO US, is He still doing?
@Latin i back😂 Can you tell something about it? If God created and DID everything what He had to do, so can we say that He is still working now?

Does God helps us in every moment as now or he helped us in the moment we was born? I think thay first version is more biblical but what is your opinion

Valencia, I can do better than only give you my opinion.
I give you the teachings of the Church on the subject, my opinion is the same.
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Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott;

For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary, (De fide dogma).
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There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide dogma).

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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Free Will explains;
“God is the author of all causes and effects. God’s omnipotent providence exercises a complete and perfect control over all events that happen, or will happen, in the universe.”
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The condition that the above teaching can be possible is, God Designed, Decreed, Foreordained from all eternity and He causes every our tailor-made actions.
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God is omniscient, He could make our wills 100 % in line with His will in two ways.

One way would be, at our creation God would put all our tailor made graces/ program into our brains which is enough for our lifetime and then He is only watching our actions.
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The other way is, God himself operates in us/ in our wills and He is continually spoon-feeds us with His tailor-made graces/ program.
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De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32: “It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good … . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act , providing most effective powers to the will.
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CCC 2022; The divine initiative (supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul) in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.
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Aquinas said, “ God changes the will without forcing it. But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being …
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CCC 308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.

CCC 307 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free, causes in order to complete the work of creation, … Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will.
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As we see above, God is the author of all causes and effects. God’s omnipotent providence exercises a complete and perfect control over all events that happen, or will happen, in the universe.

As God himself operates in our wills/ spoon-feeds us with ALL THE GRACES NECESSARY FOR ACCOMPLISHMENT, IN THIS WAY NO ONE rejects His graces, we don’t even have to know that we are cooperating with His graces.
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CCC 307, CCC 2022, etc. As we are God’s builders, God causes us in order to complete the work of creation, … Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will.
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God bless

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Because perhaps there is free will after all. I can raise or lower my hand at will. At the same time, free will is not all encompassing but still I believe that in many cases a certain amount of free will is detectable and is felt by the individual making the choice.

Of course we all have free wills, aided free wills.

De gratia Christi 25, 26: “For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it”

CCC 307 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free, causes in order to complete the work of creation, … Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will.

Some people think they have libertarian free will because we cannot detect that God himself operates in our wills without forcing our willing and our choices.

Only God has libertarian free will, no one else.

St. Thomas (C. G., II, xxviii) if God’s purpose were made dependent on the foreseen free act of any creature, God would thereby sacrifice His own freedom, and would submit Himself to His creatures, thus abdicating His essential supremacy–a thing which is, of course, utterly inconceivable.
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God bless

But we can say God works all the time :).

God never lives us for ourselves, He himself operates in our wills at every moment and He aides/ causes for us every our acts, no exception.
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CCC 301 God does not abandon his creatures to themselves.
He not only gives them being and existence, but also, and at every moment, upholds and sustains them in being, utter dependence enables them to act and brings them to their final end .
Recognizing this with respect to the Creator is a source of wisdom and freedom, of joy and confidence.
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CCC 308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.

CCC 307 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free, causes in order to complete the work of creation, … Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will.
.
As we are all God’s builders, God Designed, Decreed, Preordained from all Eternity every our tailor-made acts, no exception, and He provides us all the graces necessary for accomplishment.
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God works in us with 100 % success rate, we are all His builders, He Designed the building plan, which is also the script/ movie of our life on this earth.
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Heaven will be a different matter.
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God bless

At least you still believe in God…

I avoid most “prove this” and “prove that” lines of potential endless time-wasters…

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